Who understands what the goal of the religion of Judasim is?

[Bishadi]

What is the goal of judaism in relation to objectives?

Meaning to understand the prophecies of Judaism, maybe more can understand the politics behind the faith.

Isn't there a Zion or alter of some sort that is requisite prior to the coming of messiah?

[dauer]

"If you have a sapling in your hand, and one comes to say that the mashiach is here, plant the sapling, and then go forth to receive him."

--R' Yochanan ben Zakkai

Passive messianism is generally the norm in Judaism and there is no such requisite as that you have stated before the mashiach comes. According to one passage in the Talmud the state of the world says more about how the mashiach comes than when. If he comes when things are all good in the world, it will be an easy birth, as it were. If he comes when things are all bad, it will be a difficult one. Therefore, the best thing to do in order to prepare for the mashiach is to make the world a better place so that the transition to olam haba will be an easy one.

There is active messianism and that is largely tied to Jewish mysticism. Almost all of the active messianism does not place particular emphasis on things like physical buildings. There is, for example, hasidism which, when it takes an active view, generally focuses on spreading hasidus. Then there are those who use focused kavvanot during their actions as a way to raise the nitzotzot.

There are some folks who are working on the beit hamikdash and the rest of us tend to think they're nuts. They're in cahoots with the Kahanists.

I didn't bother to offer any translation or explanation of Jewish terms because of your implicit claim that you know the goal of Judaism. If you are an expert on the religion then no explanation of terms should be necessary on my part.

-- Dauer

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dauer

"If you have a sapling in your hand, and one comes to say that the mashiach is here, plant the sapling, and then go forth to receive him."

--R' Yochanan ben Zakkai

Passive messianism is generally the norm in Judaism and there is no such requisite as that you have stated before the mashiach comes. According to one passage in the Talmud the state of the world says more about how the mashiach comes than when. If he comes when things are all good in the world, it will be an easy birth, as it were. If he comes when things are all bad, it will be a difficult one. Therefore, the best thing to do in order to prepare for the mashiach is to make the world a better place so that the transition to olam haba will be an easy one.

There is active messianism and that is largely tied to Jewish mysticism. Almost all of the active messianism does not place particular emphasis on things like physical buildings. There is, for example, hasidism which, when it takes an active view, generally focuses on spreading hasidus. Then there are those who use focused kavvanot during their actions as a way to raise the nitzotzot.

There are some folks who are working on the beit hamikdash and the rest of us tend to think they're nuts. They're in cahoots with the Kahanists.

I didn't bother to offer any translation or explanation of Jewish terms because of your implicit claim that you know the goal of Judaism. If you are an expert on the religion then no explanation of terms should be necessary on my part.

-- Dauer

ROFLMAO Dauer, that was priceless!

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by dauer

Passive messianism is generally the norm in Judaism

I recently heard about that from someone I was talking with. It would seem to lend itself to a very passive attitude - incompatible not only with activism, but also with confronting one's own issues and doing something about them.

[dauer]

Netti-Netti,

not at all. I would say Jews have been on the forefront of many activist movements such as civil rights and feminism. R' Abraham Joshua Heschel, to use a very well known individual, marched alongside MLK Jr. Confronting one's own issues is encapsulated at the root level in the concept of teshuva and further expanded in other areas of Jewish thought and practice. To give a very basic example of how Judaism ties in confronting one's own issues, there is the traditional interpretation/translation of Mitzrayim (Egypt) as a place of narrowness, which then reminds us each year to leave our own narrow places. Along with that, to make only one reference that is directly related, is the idea of abstaining from leavened products. What is the difference between matzah and chametz? Chametz is full of hot air, over-inflated. The rhythms of the Jewish day, week and year offer many opportunities for introspection and improvement, but again, very important is teshuva which calls not only for a recognition of one's errors, but a commitment to change.

We're generally passive about messianism as we've seen the dangers of active messianism e.g. Bar Kokhba and Shabtai Tzvi. We've been around long enough to recognize the dangers of an active messianism and adapt. Those forms of active messianism that do exist tend to redirect themselves away from attachment to messianic expectations for individual people though at times, even that doesn't go as well. A current example of that not going so well is chabad.

I would suggest to you and to Bishadi that in interfaith dialogue it is better to come with questions and an interest in learning and exchange than with veiled accusations based primarily in one's ignorance of the tradition/s that is/are the topic of discussion.

-- Dauer

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by dauer

I would say Jews have been on the forefront of many activist movements such as civil rights and feminism. R' Abraham Joshua Heschel, to use a very well known individual, marched alongside MLK Jr. Confronting one's own issues is encapsulated at the root level in the concept of teshuva and further expanded in other areas of Jewish thought and practice.

I did not question Jewish activism. I was merely wondering about how to reconcile the passive messianism you mentioned to that historical activism.

I would suggest to you and to Bishadi that in interfaith dialogue it is better to come with questions and an interest in learning and exchange than with veiled accusations based primarily in one's ignorance of the tradition/s that is/are the topic of discussion.

I think you have mistaken the point of my post. I'll restate my original comment in question form: How is passive messianism - which would seem to lend itself to a passive attitude - compatible with activism? Further, would it be accurate to say that the resultant passive attitude leads to a failure to confront one's own (personal life adjustment) issues and doing something about them?

I'm just trying to get the concept of passive messianism clarified. Sorry for my lack of clarity in this regard.

[wil]

Couple of quotes recently from chabad...

It is not so much that we need to be taken out of exile. It is
that the exile must be taken out of us.

And there was another one, I thought I saved but didn't in regards to the mashiach already being here. Reflections on change of perception, from waiting to living now. (note, different than the general Christian perceptions)

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by dauer

... very important is teshuva which calls not only for a recognition of one's errors, but a commitment to change.

This is what the fellow I was talking with was telling me about. The context was personal change and, more specifically, resistance to taking action. In other words, inertial tendencies, passivity, or "stuckness."

You will note my posts often deal with this. My own feeling is that it involves fear of change, lack of faith and/or a sense of unworthiness. I have more detail on this in a forthcoming post on St. John's "Dark Night of the Soul."

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by dauer

To give a very basic example of how Judaism ties in confronting one's own issues, there is the traditional interpretation/translation of Mitzrayim (Egypt) as a place of narrowness, which then reminds us each year to leave our own narrow places.

That's an interesting thought. The Nile river gives Egypt a very narrow area of fertile ground in the middle of a desert.

Along with that, to make only one reference that is directly related, is the idea of abstaining from leavened products. What is the difference between matzah and chametz? Chametz is full of hot air, over-inflated.

As in too puffed up with pride to make needed changes?

The rhythms of the Jewish day, week and year offer many opportunities for introspection and improvement, but again, very important is teshuva which calls not only for a recognition of one's errors, but a commitment to change.


-- Dauer

Quite interesting, Dauer!

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by dauer

The rhythms of the Jewish day, week and year offer many opportunities for introspection and improvement

I'd appreciate more detail and maybe some decent links for more info on these cycles.

I scored very high on 'Reformed Judaism' on the beliefnet test, so you can appreciate my interest.

[dauer]

Netti-Netti,

I'm just trying to get the concept of passive messianism clarified. Sorry for my lack of clarity in this regard.

I understand now. Sorry I misinterpreted what you said. I think in light of Bishadi's earlier post and more recent postings I was being a little overly defensive.

I did not question Jewish activism. I was merely wondering about how to reconcile the passive messianism you mentioned to that historical activism.

The lack of active messianism is pretty specific, not that we can't make the world a better place, but that when it comes to things like identifying who the messiah is or preparing by taking concrete steps specifically related to the messiah, not to do it. That includes things like saying, "So-and-so must be the messiah" before the messianic prophecies have been fulfilled and trying to build the beit hamikdash (some crazies who're working in that direction anyway can be found at the Temple Institute who I refuse to bump up in google by linking to them.)

seattlegal,

That's an interesting thought. The Nile river gives Egypt a very narrow area of fertile ground in the middle of a desert.

There is one interpretation that equates it with the birth canal. Cyclically pesach connects much like easter with the spring and the return of life to something that appears lifeless.

As in too puffed up with pride to make needed changes?

Yeah an acknowledgement of being very puffed up, which is why the switch from eating chametz like during the rest of the year to eating matzah over pesach according to one interpretation. There are a few different interpretations even for that particular line of thinking. For some it's about pride, others about ego, others about anger. Personally I think those three ideas are all somewhat connected and it's best at pesach to make the connection with whichever idea is most personally helpful.

And back to Netti,

I'd appreciate more detail and maybe some links for more info on these cycles.

My Jewish Learning: Jewish Socialism in America is a good site but to find what you're looking for you'll have to sift through a bit. There's a book I've been reading lately that's got most of the chapters on google books. One of them is called Sacred Seasons and can be found here:

The Way of the Boundary Crosser: An ... - Google Book Search

That will deal primarily with the yearly cycles though and as with most any book, the author does have a certain perspective which colors things. It's not like there's one unifying interpretation of Jewish holidays and rituals that everyone agrees with. Disagreement and healthy debate is a Jewish tradition. I wonder if the importance of debate is a greek influence.

Daily cycles have more to do with blessings regarding certain actions, the daily prayer services and other ritual actions, in some cases with maintaining certain intentions, sometimes very complicated ones, during certain actions. Weekly cycles are more connected to the reading of the weekly torah portion and Shabbat. There's also rosh chodesh monthly which some people precede by observing Yom Kippur Katan. There's really a large constellation of practices. Different people have different concepts of what is normative practice. Then they'll either do more or less than what they consider to be normative.

-- Dauer

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by dauer

Passive messianism is generally the norm in Judaism and there is no such requisite as that you have stated before the mashiach comes.

your opinion Dauer, and fair

yet within many of the very namesake of Judaism, there is a much different view of what was written.

According to one passage in the Talmud the state of the world says more about how the mashiach comes than when.

As like you suggested, good debate is healthy in Judaistic life; such the Talmut is of such debates of Torah.

Maybe some branches do or do not apply messiahnism; but remember, Jesus was said to be the messiah of the Jews. That idea was from sibyl and torah for the west

If he comes when things are all good in the world, it will be an easy birth, as it were. If he comes when things are all bad, it will be a difficult one. Therefore, the best thing to do in order to prepare for the mashiach is to make the world a better place so that the transition to olam haba will be an easy one.

such kind ness in your words.....

we all can see how the world is so you can define that how you like

the end time and olam haba are all tied together in which before it gets better, it will be ugly; see Jeremiah for an idea

There is active messianism and that is largely tied to Jewish mysticism. Almost all of the active messianism does not place particular emphasis on things like physical buildings. There is, for example, hasidism which, when it takes an active view, generally focuses on spreading hasidus. Then there are those who use focused kavvanot during their actions as a way to raise the nitzotzot.

so since each of these branches offer an interpretation, as well you have yours of course, are you suggesting the words of Torah have nothing to suggest about messiah?

To me Judaism is Torah based, doesn't make sense to be observant to the collective of Tanach for the ideas of messiah. I do not believe, these additions are of the core text of the faith/ humble prophetic intent.

I didn't bother to offer any translation or explanation of Jewish terms because of your implicit claim that you know the goal of Judaism. If you are an expert on the religion then no explanation of terms should be necessary on my part.

-- Dauer

what a nice post until the defensive posture took over and then after reading through the thread, it seems that perhaps some said about Judaism was not of your approval; if they are not the same as you, then please do not take it personal; i am not prejudice towards any; but the selfish

[dauer]

Bishadi,

your opinion Dauer, and fair

yet within many of the very namesake of Judaism, there is a much different view of what was written.

Not just my opinion, the majority view.

Maybe some branches do or do not apply messiahnism; but remember, Jesus was said to be the messiah of the Jews. That idea was from sibyl and torah for the west

That's an excellent example of the type of situation that led to passive messianism. As you point out, around the period that Jesus supposedly lived there was quite a bit of more active messianism. It was also around that time that we find Bar Kokhba who I mentioned previously, another false messiah in Judaism. Bar Kokhba was actually a much bigger deal in Judaism than Jesus was. R' Akiva thought Bar Kokhba was the messiah. But he was wrong, and it's one of the situations from which we learned not to pursue messianism so actively.

such kind ness in your words.....

I don't know what you mean by that. Since English may not be your first language, I should point out that an ellipsis often indicates something is left unsaid. Are you implying something other than that there is kindness in my words?

we all can see how the world is so you can define that how you like

What I said is nothing to do with how I define the world. It's to do with Jewish messianism. This conversation is not about the way the world really is. It's about Jewish views on messianism. What I presented is a very well known Jewish perspective on how the situation of the world when the mashiach comes will effect the transition into olam haba.

the end time and olam haba are all tied together in which before it gets better, it will be ugly; see Jeremiah for an idea

Judaism is not sola scriptura and negative prophecy doesn't work like that for us. If a prophet says something negative it doesn't mean that it will come true. It means that it will come true if the people don't change their ways. Thus, if the world is good when the mashiach arrives, it will be an easy birth.

so since each of these branches offer an interpretation, as well you have yours of course, are you suggesting the words of Torah have nothing to suggest about messiah?

Judaism is not so dogmatic as to insist that everyone believe the same thing and this isn't about different branches. Within the same branch of Judaism two people can hold very different theologies. There are some things that tend to remain the same but views can differ greatly. The Torah has 70 faces, as it were. Are you familiar with PaRDeS methodology? It is one approach to textual exegesis in Judaism and, in encompassing four levels of interpretation, gives a decent idea of the way in which we approach the text.

To me Judaism is Torah based, doesn't make sense to be observant to the collective of Tanach for the ideas of messiah. I do not believe, these additions are of the core text of the faith/ humble prophetic intent.

Judaism is Torah based. Torah is the core of Judaism. Everything else is based in Torah. Furthermore, your beliefs about Judaism don't change the religion. We're capable of defining ourselves.

what a nice post until the defensive posture took over and then after reading through the thread, it seems that perhaps some said about Judaism was not of your approval; if they are not the same as you, then please do not take it personal; i am not prejudice towards any; but the selfish

When you enter an interfaith discussion with assumptions and veiled accusations instead of an open mind and an interest in learning from others, expect as much. Your posts reveal that you are very ignorant of Judaism. I can't speak to your knowledge of other traditions. I think you would do best to admit your own ignorance and apply a different approach.

-- Dauer

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

to understand the prophecies of Judaism, maybe more can understand the politics behind the faith.

that assumes that politics underpin the faith, rather than the other way around. it also assumes that politics is always involved and that faith is always involved. that is a pretty big set of assumptions for a belief system that may be 3000 years old and presently includes groups whose faith may 100% or 0% of their commitment to any political aim. in short, it's going to be difficult to generalise.

Originally Posted by Dauer

I didn't bother to offer any translation or explanation of Jewish terms because of your implicit claim that you know the goal of Judaism. If you are an expert on the religion then no explanation of terms should be necessary on my part.

of course, you'll ask us if you need any, won't you, bishadi?

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

It would seem to lend itself to a very passive attitude - incompatible not only with activism, but also with confronting one's own issues and doing something about them.

i think the distinction is around whether one is permitted to be activist only with regard to oneself, or activist in regard to wider society. activist messianism (in the modern sense) is also a modern response, albeit religiously-inspired action to obey the commandment to live in the *land* of israel (which is not at all the same thing as the *state*) has been happening on and off for 2000 years. it wasn't really ever what one could understand as a mass movement except once, during the false messiahship of shabbetai tzvi in the C17th, not even after the expulsion from spain in 1492. even now, you couldn't call *religious* zionism a mass movement, it is confined to certain subgroups.

Originally Posted by Dauer

The lack of active messianism is pretty specific, not that we can't make the world a better place, but that when it comes to things like identifying who the messiah is or preparing by taking concrete steps specifically related to the messiah, not to do it. That includes things like saying, "So-and-so must be the messiah" before the messianic prophecies have been fulfilled and trying to build the beit hamikdash (some crazies who're working in that direction anyway can be found at the Temple Institute who I refuse to bump up in google by linking to them.)

i couldn't have put it better myself.

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Jesus was said to be the messiah of the Jews. That idea was from sibyl and torah for the west

but this wasn't said by us. jesus has never qualified as the messiah to the jews according to the criteria that we use. and we certainly wouldn't pay much attention to any "sibyl" - what has the oracle of cumae to do with us?

we all can see how the world is so you can define that how you like

actually, that statement is highly debatable, philosophically speaking. you can't define reality for other people, nor can i, but all we can do is speak for ourselves and, if we understand things incorrectly, readjust our opinions.

the end time and olam haba are all tied together in which before it gets better, it will be ugly; see Jeremiah for an idea

jeremiah's primary focus was the disintegration of society in the run up to the destruction of the first Temple by the babylonians; it contains universal messages (i recommend heschel's "the prophets" for understanding this) but i cannot say on the evidence that i know of that his concern is with olam ha-ba and with the messianic age. also, what dauer said regarding negative prophecy. if there are specific quotes that you would like to bring in here so we can examine this issue properly, i'd be interested in doing that. if, however, you think you already know the answer to everything, then i don't see much point in you trying to lecture us about it when we are perfectly capable of engaging with our own tradition.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by dauer

When you enter an interfaith discussion with assumptions and veiled accusations instead of an open mind and an interest in learning from others, expect as much. Your posts reveal that you are very ignorant of Judaism. I can't speak to your knowledge of other traditions. I think you would do best to admit your own ignorance and apply a different approach.

-- Dauer

I am not perfect. Never said I was, but likewise you talking about my english yet you use religious words as if everyone of english would have an awareness of your religious observances. Like you said; many faith comes from the same book.

The thread is about the 'goal' of Judaism; and is opened to read others ideas and opinions but be certain you do not speak for the 'majority' of them.

You are speaking from your point of view as you believe everyone should.

it's normal but please do not suggest we as human being are not watching the TV and see some guy (orthodox) suggesting that the temple mount must be rebuilt for the messiah to come. I know better and it seems you do too but you are not speaking FOR Judaism; just for you sect.

or simply share to the forum; there are a gazillion variations to judaism...

heck ask Madonna...

or ask R' Akiva........

Bar Kokhba was actually a much bigger deal in Judaism than Jesus was. R' Akiva thought Bar Kokhba was the messiah.

Are you implying something other than that there is kindness in my words?

that you started out fair and with kindness..... but since you speak for the majority of judaism, i am sure we will bump heads eventually..... as I am biased against anyone who secularizes against the truth...

What I said is nothing to do with how I define the world. It's to do with Jewish messianism. This conversation is not about the way the world really is. It's about Jewish views on messianism. What I presented is a very well known Jewish perspective on how the situation of the world when the mashiach comes will effect the transition into olam haba.

is that so?

Judaism is not sola scriptura and negative prophecy doesn't work like that for us. If a prophet says something negative it doesn't mean that it will come true.

Name something of prophecy that was changed by a group changing their ways?

It means that it will come true if the people don't change their ways. Thus, if the world is good when the mashiach arrives, it will be an easy birth.

that birth has already occurred

Judaism is not so dogmatic as to insist that everyone believe the same thing and this isn't about different branches. Within the same branch of Judaism two people can hold very different theologies. There are some things that tend to remain the same but views can differ greatly.

We can all see that ....

The Torah has 70 faces, as it were. Are you familiar with PaRDeS methodology?

so now to understand a book half the globe has access too, now we must do an ology of methods in order to comprhend the majority of youe religious order.

Judaism is Torah based. Torah is the core of Judaism. Everything else is based in Torah. Furthermore, your beliefs about Judaism don't change the religion. We're capable of defining ourselves.

you must be another of the 'chosen' to tell me how about defining. I brought the torah because talmut to me is 'less than' pure.... ....

as it is like reading a ted haggard translation of the bible...

the thread is to share a messianic belief of (a branch i guess) the judaistic faith in which the religious right (orthodox) actually believe they must build a new temple, often referred to in midrash

but please tell me how wrong I am as it appears to if a line from david was right in front of you, you would not even know it

or let me guess, you waiting for perfection!