Who Understands why Israel was created?

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by LenoBee

I am quite certain he is not in reference to that specific year alone. The Israel/Jewish Palestine conflict, invasion and slaughter of Palestine has been going for many decades prior. You can thank the Roman Empire. Are you being ignorant or displaying your own bias? Giving statements hidden by a question mark does not change what you are really saying (?). Like that.

I'm trying to repoint the thread towards more constructive discussion.

Originally Posted by omprem

You are seriously misinformed about the Zionist occupation of Palestine. The first group of Zionists, known as Chibbat or Chovenei-Zion (Lovers of Zion) landed at Jaffa on July 7, 1882. The publication of Theodor Herzl's The State of the Jews in 1896 started the process of political Zionism. In 1897 the first Zionist Congress met at Basel, Switzerland to discuss establishment of a Jewish state and the World Zionist. In 1895 the population of Palestine was about 453,000 Palestinians and 47,000 Jews. These figures did not stop Dr. Chaim Weizmann, leader of the Zionist movement, from stirring up Zionist support in 1917 by spreading the slogan “A land without people for a people without a land.” That alone should give you a sense of the underhandedness of Zionists.


In 1914, Britain promised the independence of Arab lands, including Palestine, under Ottoman rule in return for Arab support against Turkey. However, in 1916, Britain, France, Russia signed the Sykes-Picot Agreement dividing up Arab lands between them. Then in 1917, Britain issued the Balfour Declaration promising the Jews a homeland in Palestine in return for Jewish support of Britain against Turkey. So, now we have the British promising the same land to which they had no right to both Arabs and Jews for help against the Ottoman Turks. The British tried to meet both of these obligations by having the Balfour Declaration state that it was "clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

However as we all know there was no protection of civil and religious rights or even the lives of Palestinians only a relentless, creeping invasion by the Zionists of Palestine.

Indeed, I'm quite familiar with it - and obviously there is far more that can be added.

What disturbs me is how, when faced with the issue being discussed, people slip into easy blame games of "who started it", which is always dependent upon which date you determine the argument started from.

What's interesting is how easy people find it to simply condemn, rather than discuss more constructive ways of addressing the issue - there are various movements working across the Israeli-Palestinian border that seeks to bring both populations together in a positive way; we've seen extreme political developments that makes the potential for a landed Palestinian State much more likely and more surprising, the political will to push forward with it.

With those points in mind, rather than dwell upon a blame game, isn't there something to be had in addressing possible issues and ways of tackling them that seem apparent in terms of the future development of the region?

Wouldn't it be a more challenging discussion to dare to look to the future?

2c.

[omprem]

Originally Posted by Dogbrain

Written like a true Islamicist propagandist. Even if there is some vestige of reasonability within you, your specific choice of terms relegates to to the ranks of extremists and terrorists.

So you agree that Jews arbitrarily invaded Palestine, killed or deported hundreds of thousands of the Palestinians whose land and assets they wanted, refused to make reparations, and continue their creeping takeover of Palestinian land to this day, but are hung up on a couple of adjectives use to describe the above. Are you nuts? Or, perhaps you are a Jew.

[I, Brian]

Okay, the tone of this discussion calms down one way or the other.

Make your choice - grown-up discussions are welcome here, playground name-calling isn't.

I've obviously been away too long, but this behaviour stops now.

[Eclectic Mystic]

Originally Posted by Dogbrain

Written like a true genocidist.

Reductio ad hitlerum alert. Dogbrain, please excuse yourself from the discussion.

[omprem]

Originally Posted by Dogbrain

I note your choice of words. "The Jews" are to blame, not "The Israelis" nor even "The Zionists". It's "the Jews". Written like a true genocidist.

The 'Oh, poor me, look at how I have been maligned and discriminated against' defense of yours is merely a ploy first to justify taking land from the Palestinians and killing or deporting them to obtain that land and second a tactic to divert attention from the genocide perpetrated by Jews in Palestine so that the Jews do not have to face the consequences of the genocide they are inflicting on the rightful inhabitants of Palestine.

Jews claim they are entitled to land in the Middle East because of what happened to them in WWII but their invasion of the Middle East was underway 60 years before WWII even began. But WWII was significant because the Jews learning well the lessons and methodologies of the final solution and applied them viciously to the Palestinians whose land they wanted although with refinements and improvements. Yes, the Jews are experts in committing genocide.

[omprem]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

What disturbs me is how, when faced with the issue being discussed, people slip into easy blame games of "who started it", which is always dependent upon which date you determine the argument started from.

Wrong. No matter which date is selected it is always the Zionists who invaded or are invading, killed and deported or are killing and deporting. Your slick veneer of reason is a sham and is merely a ploy to excuse the inexcusable genocide of the Palestinians, the rightful inhabitants of Palestine, at the hands of the Jews who wanted their land.

You are immoral to the core if you are not interested in justice for the dead and exiled Palestinians, reparations for the millions of Palestinians affected, and punishment of those Jews who have committed and continue to commit on a daily basis atrocities against those whose land they usurped and are continuing to usurp.

Originally Posted by I,Brian

What's interesting is how easy people find it to simply condemn, rather than discuss more constructive ways of addressing the issue

High on that list of 'ways of addressing the issue' is justice for the aggrieved Palestinians and punishment of the Jews who committed and continue to commit crimes against the Palestinians (and that include those who benefit from those war crimes).

Originally Posted by I,Brian

Without that there is no - there are various movements working across the Israeli-Palestinian border that seeks to bring both populations together in a positive way; we've seen extreme political developments that makes the potential for a landed Palestinian State much more likely and more surprising, the political will to push forward with it.

There already was a landed home for Palestinians before the Zionists decided to take it. What you are proposing under a slimy veneer of being oh so reasonable is a way to enable those Zionists to keep their plunder and pay no consequences for that looting, murder and mayhem.

Originally Posted by I,Brian

With those points in mind, rather than dwell upon a blame game, isn't there something to be had in addressing possible issues and ways of tackling them that seem apparent in terms of the future development of the region?

Wouldn't it be a more challenging discussion to dare to look to the future?

The Palestinians just want their stolen land and assets back and reparations for the murder, deportation and imprisonment in concentration camps of Palestinians. If you want to appear reasonable this is a good place to start. Then you can move on to the question of why someone (the Zionists) who committed murder and dispossession in the course of a robbery should be allowed to keep the proceeds of that robbery and not face any consequences for the crime. Hurry now, Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement is fast approaching and it would not be incumbent upon you to dissemble as you have been.

[GlorytoGod]

right or wrong modern Israel exists, so get used to it, because it is here to stay.

the Palestinians dont do themselves any favors ! and the Islamic world does bugger all to help them.

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by omprem

The 'Oh, poor me, look at how I have been maligned and discriminated against' defense of yours

What on earth are you babbling? You sound like a lunatic. I am not a Jew. I just hate genociders, which you do sound like.

Jews claim

Once again, you use the language of genocide--demonize every member of a group merely because of the circumstances of their birth. Are you truly so ignorant and bigoted as to think that ALL Jews have such beliefs?

You're just parroting neonazi propaganda by now.

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by LenoBee

If you don’t wish to discuss it then why are you discussing it? If his view is so wrong then why don’t you give your own wrong view instead of only criticizing his?

because i'm bored of talking to bigots. people who have such a one-sided and closed-minded approach to the israel-palestine issue bore me senseless. there is never any end to them, all arriving tooled up with the same old arguments and ready for a punch-up. i've been on this board (and the other one i spend time on) for quite a few years now and i've been round and round this mill till there really isn't anything new to add. it is pointless to try and change people's minds when they aren't interested in admitting any possibility of change and are so extreme in their views. nonetheless, my options are always:

1. do nothing and be accused of not replying because i haven't a leg to stand on - well, i could say plenty, but actually i have better things to do with my time, like my real-life job.
2. respond and waste my time being drawn into a fruitless argument with someone with so far to go that s/he doesn't even admit there could be two (or more) sides to the argument
3. go in heavy mode and be accused of "shutting down debate" to "protect my agenda" as a "debate tactic"? well, i simply don't care enough about winning this argument with this person; the benefit is far from clear to me.

If his bias solution is so wrong then why not you, display your own bias and your own wrong solution?

i've done it loads of times. just go and search on this topic and you'll get a bunch of threads back where you can argue to your heart's content with a bunch of people who have marched in, yelled and marched out again. suffice it to say that i have heard every one of these arguments before and all they learn is how thoroughly people can internalise one side of the debate. someone who is so uninterested in what jews are and what we believe as to present our connection to the land of israel as "bogus" shares his position with such people as hamas and the political leadership of iran and, frankly, it is not my job to do PR for the israeli government. i've made my views abundantly clear elsewhere, i'm not typing it all out again for the benefit of someone who can only argue in terms of canards that that old chestnut about herzl and argentina. or the old "arabs are semites" chestnut. the word "semitic" only has meaning in sociolinguistics; its misapplication to this argument is another "debate tactic".

Are you nuts? Or, perhaps you are a Jew.

that's it in a nutshell, isn't it. because only a jew would dare defend this bunch of *******s, because they're all *******s too and prepared to lie, cheat and commit genocide (learned from the nazis, you know) to get what they want to steal. this is the level of debate i'm not prepared to sink to.

bugger this for a game of soldiers. i'm not justifying myself to jew-haters. this thread should be closed or binned - but i'm not going to do it; i have nothing to apologise for, nor do i have anything to fear from free speech.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by omprem

Your slick veneer of reason is a sham and is merely a ploy to excuse the inexcusable genocide of the Palestinians

You are immoral to the core if you are not interested in justice for the dead and exiled Palestinians

What you are proposing under a slimy veneer of being oh so reasonable is a way to enable those Zionists to keep their plunder and pay no consequences for that looting, murder and mayhem.

I'd like to respectfully suggest that statements like the above are just personal attacks and have no place on CR.

If anyone here wants to make personal attacks on other people, I can only suggest you find unmoderated communities - the net is full of them.

In the meantime, we do not censor religious or political views on CR - all we ask for is a little civility.

If that's too hard for anyone here, you are welcome to move of your own accord, or be removed for it.

In the meantime, despite my earlier comments, it seems this thread continues to degenerate - therefore thread closed.