Who was called "God"(Heb. 'elohim) or "the LORD"(Heb. YHVH) who appeared in the O.T?

Dor · 05-11-2005, 10:34 AM

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that the Father has never been seen by mankind.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.(KJV)
Joh 5:37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.(KJV)
Joh 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.(KJV)
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, whois the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.(KJV)
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. (KJV)

So who was the one called "God" (Heb. 'elohim) or "the LORD" (Heb. YHVH) who appeared and spoke to Noah, Abraham, Moses and others in the Old Testament??

Gen 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. Gen 16:8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. Gen 16:9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. Gen 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD[YHVH] that spoke unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?(KJV)

The name YHVH (also variously rendered "YHWH," "Yahweh," "Yahveh," "Yehovah," or "Jehovah") is found over 6,800 times in the Old Testament. A detailed review of the Hebrew Scriptures shows this name was applied to God the Father (Deu. 18:15; Psa. 110:1), the Angel of the LORD (Exo. 13:21; 19:20), and even to other angels (Gen. 19:18, original Hebrew text). Hagar called the Angel of the Lord by the name YHVH. The Targums record another name for this being.

GENESIS 16:7 And the Angel of the Lord found her at the fountain of waters in the desert; at the fountain of waters which is in the way to Chagra. 8 And He said, Hagar, handmaid of Sara, whence comest thou, and whither does thou go? And she said, From before Sara my mistress I have escaped. 9 And the Angel of the Lord said to her, Return to thy mistress, and be subject under her hand. 10 And the Angel of the Lord said to her, Multiplying I will multiply thy sons, and they shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her, Behold, thou art with child, and thou wilt bear a son, and thou shalt call his name Ishmael, because thy affliction is revealed before the Lord. 12 And he shall be like the wild ass among men: his hands shall take vengeance of his adversaries, and the hands of his adversaries be put forth to do him evil; and in the presence of all his brethren shall he be commingled and shall dwell. 13 And she gave thanks before the Lord whose Word spake to her, and thus said, Thou art He who livest and art eternal; who seest, but art not seen! (Targum Pseudo-Jonathan, translated by J.W. Etheridge)
GENESIS 16:13 And Hagar gave thanks, and prayed in the Name of the Word of the Lord, who had been manifested to her, saying, Blessed be Thou, Eloha, the Living One of all Ages, who hast looked upon my affliction. (Jerusalem Targum, translated by J.W. Etheridge)

We know who the messianic Jews identified as the Word of the Lord.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.(KJV)
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.(KJV)

There are many more I could go into but would like to see what others feel.

Faithfulservant · 05-11-2005, 10:37 AM

Beautiful

KnightoftheRose · 05-11-2005, 01:46 PM

That was really good, Dor.

Would you mind if I saved that to my hard drive for future reference?

Bandit · 05-11-2005, 08:11 PM

Looks good to me Dor.

you know the midwest is also bible belt, Texans just wear a bigger belt & thump the bible a little harder & I am always glad to hear it go thump. LOL

truthseeker · 05-12-2005, 12:15 AM

Interesting. Makes me want to study Hebrew right now. I thought elohim and YHVH is God. And I just looked at Moses' interactions with God. "God called Moses from the mountain." And HE talked to Moses from the burning bush. So on. I never picked up on those small details. Interesting.

Quahom1 · 05-12-2005, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that the Father has never been seen by mankind.

So who was the one called "God" (Heb. 'elohim) or "the LORD" (Heb. YHVH) who appeared and spoke to Noah, Abraham, Moses and others in the Old Testament??

The name YHVH (also variously rendered "YHWH," "Yahweh," "Yahveh," "Yehovah," or "Jehovah") is found over 6,800 times in the Old Testament. A detailed review of the Hebrew Scriptures shows this name was applied to God the Father (Deu. 18:15; Psa. 110:1), the Angel of the LORD (Exo. 13:21; 19:20), and even to other angels (Gen. 19:18, original Hebrew text). Hagar called the Angel of the Lord by the name YHVH. The Targums record another name for this being.

We know who the messianic Jews identified as the Word of the Lord.

There are many more I could go into but would like to see what others feel.

It was Jesus who was there...before the world knew Him...

v/r

Q

Dor · 05-12-2005, 04:07 AM

exactly Q!!!

Paultoo · 05-12-2005, 08:29 AM

Quote:

"1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. (KJV)"

Her's another one for your perusing Dor..this is Jesus speaking..Jonn 1:18 " No man hath seen God at any time;the only begotton Son which is in the bosum of the Father, he hath declared him". In other words, no one would know who God is; not unless God's Son had informed such as in humanity as to who God is.

Moses wanted to see God's face; but God would only show Moses his back. What did Moses see? Read it in Exodus 33:23. When God visited Abraham; He showed himself as a human, who sat with Abraham and literally ate baked cakes and ate a meat dinner provided by Abraham. In every instance when God revealed Himself to sinful humans; he did so, with at the same time protecting the human from being consumed to death with God's glory....It was because God wanted to protect Moses from death that in the mount Sinai, God had to cover Moses face and just show Moses His back or Moses would have been consumed to death...and even then showing Moses His back..did not cause Moses to, in earnest reveal what He saw; thus making you think that whatever Moses saw was so glorius that Moses thought it better not to reveal to sinful humanity the back of the Perfect
Being, God. In any event no human as ever seen God as Very God; and what humanity knows of God is limited to what Jesus has declared about His Father".

Quote:

So who was the one called "God" (Heb. 'elohim) or "the LORD" (Heb. YHVH) who appeared and spoke to Noah, Abraham, Moses and others in the Old Testament??"

It is more than apparent that just as God "sheilded Moses from instant death; so he has also "sheilded all the humans that he spoke with; by appearing to the humans in a form that spared the humans the cetain death that would result if said human were to behold His glory.

Since God Himself said that that no man could see His face and live...a statement he made to Moses in the old testament...so he still meant when he said so through Paul in the New testament.

Paultoo.

Dor · 05-12-2005, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paultoo

When God visited Abraham; He showed himself as a human, who sat with Abraham and literally ate baked cakes and ate a meat dinner provided by Abraham.Paultoo.

Well lets look at when God visited Abraham.
Gen 18:1 And the LORD[YHVH] appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
If we look at the Jerusalem Targum we see a further identification of who came to him
GENESIS 18:1 Therefore was there a word of prophecy from before the Lord unto Abraham the Just, and the Word of the Lord was revealed to him in the valley of vision; and he sat in the door of the tabernacle, comforting himself from his circumcision in the fervour (or strength) of the day. (Jerusalem Targum, translated by J.W. Etheridge)

Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God [ha'elohim] did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
The Jerusalem Targum offers further identification here also.
GENESIS 22:1 The Word of the Lord at once tried Abraham, and said to him, Abraham! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Take now thy son, thy only one whom thou lovest, Izhak, and go into the land of worship, and offer him there, a whole burnt offering, upon one of the mountains that I will tell thee. (Targum Pseudo-Jonathan, translated by J.W. Etheridge)

And if we want to look at Moses here are a few to start with.

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. Exo 3:4 And when the LORD[YHVH] saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. (KJV)
Says right there in the KJV the Angel of the Lord appeared to him. And in the targum 3:4 is translated again as Word of the Lord.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.(KJV)
EXODUS 3:14 And the Word of the Lord said to Mosheh, He who spake to the world, Be, and it was; and who will speak to it, Be, and it will be. And he said, Thus shalt thou speak to the sons of Israel, EHEYEH hath sent me unto you. (Jerusalem Targum, translated by J.W. Etheridge)

Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;(KJV)
EXODUS 19:3 And Mosheh went up to seek instruction from before the Lord; and the Word of the Lord anticipated him from the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou speak to the men of the house of Jakob, and teach the congregation of the sons of Israel. (Jerusalem Targum, translated by J.W. Etheridge)

Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. Exo 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee forever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.(KJV)
EXODUS 19:7 And Mosheh came and called the sages of Israel and set in order before them all these words which the Word of the Lord had commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together in the fulness of their heart, and said, All that the Word of the Lord hath spoken, we will do. And Mosheh returned the words of the people in prayer before the Lord. 9 And the Word of the Lord said to Mosheh, Behold, My Word will be revealed to thee in the thickness of the cloud, that the people may hear while I speak with thee, and may also believe for ever in the words of the prophecy of thee, My servant Mosheh. And Mosheh delivered the words of the people in prayer before the Lord. (Jerusalem Targum, translated by J.W. Etheridge)

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,(KJV)
EXODUS 20:1 And the Word of the Lord spake all the excellency of these words saying: (Jerusalem Targum, translated by J.W. Etheridge)

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jesus clearly told us not only had the Father not been seen, but he had not been heard either!!

Dor · 05-12-2005, 12:18 PM

Just for a bit of information.

The most elementary meaning of the word targum is "translation" or "interpretation" . . . In later times the term targum became associated primarily with the various Aramaic translations of the OT . . . Often these translations tend to be paraphrastic, and sometimes they contain extensive annotations rather than pure literal renderings of the Hebrew text.

. . . The Hebrew Scriptures were the primary source and inspiration for the Jewish way of life. Thus it was imperative to interpret the meaning of holy writ. The oral tradition, like the Targums, provided a more or less official interpretation of the meaning of Scripture . . . The Targums, like the oral law, contain a wealth of information concerning the way the Jewish interpreters of late antiquity understood the Scriptures . . .

. . . Most scholars agree that the practice of translating the Bible into Aramaic was an early custom. Certainly the large Jewish community that remained in Babylon after the decree of Cyrus (537 B.C.) would have eventually required a translation of the sacred literature into Aramaic. . . . The Targums were indeed an actualization of the Bible, and they often elucidate the ancient Jewish understanding of particular texts.

The earliest Targums known are those discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls. . . . It may well be that the Targums were preserved and transmitted as oral tradition long before they were committed to writing. Already the Mishnah and the Tosefta described the custom of reading the Hebrew Bible and having it translated into Aramaic . . .

The study of the Targums is of paramount importance, for they reflect early Jewish ideas, customs, and Halakah as well as Jewish interpretation of Scripture. Hence the Targums are relevant sources for the study of the Hebrew OT not only because they demonstrate how the text was translated and understood, in much the same way as the LXX and other ancient Bible translations, but also because the Targums preserve remnants of Jewish thought from late antiquity. In this respect . . . they can elucidate Jewish life and understanding of the Scripture from the time of nascent Christianity. (pp. 727, 728, 729, vol. 4, "Targum") The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE)

Paultoo · 05-12-2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jesus clearly told us not only had the Father not been seen, but he had not been heard either!!

Again; Dor...the statement made by Jesus re "Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." is also true. The reason Moses had to go up on the mountain to "speak" with God was because the Israelite congregation had the following experience....Genesis 19:17-20...[b]" And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, BECAUSE THE LORD DESCENDED UPON IT IN FIRE: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked greatly...[was this the same God that "spoke" and "ate" with Abraham? was this how He manifested Himself to Abraham?]....
And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake and God answered him by voice.
And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up. And the Lord said to Moses go down, charge the people lest they break through unto the Lord to "gaze", and many of them perish"...Here again; God chose to "speak" with Moses with Moses being spared death. This not the case with the Israelite multitudes; if they violated the boundaries to "look at God", they would be killed. If they so much as violated the boundaries set by God in order to "gaze upon God", they would be killed. It was therefore God's mercy that shielded both Moses and Aaron when God "spoke" with them.

Now contrast what happened when God "spoke" to the Israelite multitudes...[b]"And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud;[u]SO THAT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WERE IN THE CAMP TREMBLED"......"and the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel"....." and all the people saw the thunderings and lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it they removed, and stood afar off[why?]..and they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us and we will [b]"hear"; BUT LET NOT GOD SPEAK WITH US, LEST WE DIE".

Dor...I hope that is clear enough.

precept

Bandit · 05-12-2005, 05:52 PM

i am seeing this as Gods voice is turned down when He speaks, so to speak, because if it were audible in full volume, it would blast the entire universe out of its sockets. so it comes out sounding like a still small voice or trumpets or thunder or whatever.
God spoke through the prophets & through dreams also. The same way He spoke & gave instruction to Noah to build the ark.

God can manifest himself any way He pleases-burning bush, through angels, through smoke & fire, through Jesus, through the apostles, the written Word & through us. God is a spirit, so he has no form or shape & is not confined that way.

No one can explain HOW God shows Himself in different ways like Mt Sinai or the 3 men who appeared to Abraham, or 2 angels that went to Sodom, but it is all by the same God. God is the Word & Jesus is the Word, it is the same Word in the OT & the NT. Men of faith SEE God in many ways, but not literally see Him because He is a spirit.

precept/paultoo, not everything has to be turned into an argument just because others percieve things differently. I hope you will get that someday. if we understood it all, or one religion has it all, we would be God.

Dor · 05-12-2005, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paultoo

Dor...I hope that is clear enough.precept

Actually it is all quite clear to me. You quoted from Ex 19 and I already showed you where the Jerusalem Targum says in EX 20:1 who was speaking was the Word of the Lord.

Num 21:5 And the people spoke against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Paul even realized who it was if you read what he said.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Paultoo · 05-12-2005, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Actually it is all quite clear to me. You quoted from Ex 19 and I already showed you where the Jerusalem Targum says in EX 20:1 who was speaking was the Word of the Lord."

And who was "the Word of the Lord"?

Christ! The Son of God! God! "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word WAS WITH GOD aand the Word WAS GOD! The same was in the beginning WITH GOD! All things were made by Him;ie THE WORD; and without THE WORD, GOD NOTHING WAS MADE"!

Quote:

Num 21:5 And the people spoke against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Paul even realized who it was if you read what he said.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

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