Why?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Cage

I'd very much like to know your pov, Bandit. Are suggesting I take a look at '1Corinthians chapter 15'?

Tell me your pov, and I'll see if It agrees with me, and makes sense after I read this chapter...

~Cage~

my POV is something i am sure you have never heard of before & i am pretty sure you will never meet another who sees it like it do. it took me 3 years of deep study & prayer to figure out WHY.
so give yourself at least that much time.

i hold an orthodox jewish view of God & that God is ONE SPIRIT, not 3 or 2. i also hold an orothodox jewish view on the Messiah. the difference being that i believe Jesus did fulfill what he was supposed to as the Messiah & that Jesus is everything the BIble says he is including God manifested in the flesh.
I believe the DEATH BURIAL & RESURRECTION was necessary. i live without the guilt & church dogma attached.

is God just? does He demand justice? is He fair or is God a liar?
would God be a just God if he required blood & death of someone innocent?
does God impute sin from one man onto another? does God impute human sin onto himself?
does each man account for his own?

in all of my studies, this is one of the deepest caverns & many- MANY paradoxes stem from this. my biggest thing is, people ask this question all the time, but i dont think they are sincere when they ask. so i keep it short & simple until i see the sincerity & honesty in the questions. IOW & IMHO- i dont think very many people really search the scriptures. it easier to just fall in line with tradition & church dogma.

one other thing to keep in mind- that which is born of flesh is flesh & that which is born of spirit is spirit. we are instructed to compare spirit with spirit & flesh with flesh. this is very important to know the instructions on how to study when we study.

if i give you my whole view at once, it would be a 300 page book. there is no written dogma for what i believe concerning WHY. so, a little here & a little there & let's see where it heads. we may end up taking this somewhere else because i am not going to debate the scriptures in a forum like this with 20 different views bouncing around.

no no. i know better.

[Cage]

Chris, I've always thought it was unwise to accept all scripture as absolute truth.

I think most Christians will tell you that you cannot 'pick and choose' from the Bible, but that's like saying in order to be an American, you must accept, agree with, and support everything our government does. I understand what you are saying, Chris, and I agree to a point.

We need to separate the wheat from the chaff, and find in the texts what resonates 'truth' within ourselves. The Bible may be 'somewhat' outdated, but it plays a major role in how I myself believe. Jesus inparticular, I admire that man more than any other, and I fully embrace what he stood for. I don't know if this fact is enough for me to be considered a Christian, but I do Love him.

Although, it is obvious that I struggle with 'mainstream' Christian thought, and dogma.

~Cage~

[China Cat Sunflower]

Well, let me be clear. I don't think the Bible is outdated at all. Some people still want to make a war god out of God. Others embrace a loving God. Some people still want to embrace the idea of devolution from a perfected state, others see themselves evolving toward an enlightened state. Some people see Christ as the ultimate idol, others just dig his philosophy. I see Christ as a concept, not a person. Whatever works, man. You gotta examine your own emotional needs and motivations. Well, I do.

Chris

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Bandit

my POV is something i am sure you have never heard of before & i am pretty sure you will never meet another who sees it like it do. it took me 3 years of deep study & prayer to figure out WHY.
so give yourself at least that much time.

My studies come more in 'pockets', lol! I get extremely involved, and then I get frustrated, and put it all down for a while. I'm not sure if 3 years would be enough considering my tendencies.

i hold an orthodox jewish view of God & that God is ONE SPIRIT, not 3 or 2. i also hold an orothodox jewish view on the Messiah. the difference being that i believe Jesus did fulfill what he was supposed to as the Messiah & that Jesus is everything the BIble says he is including God manifested in the flesh.
I believe the DEATH BURIAL & RESURRECTION was necessary. i live without the guilt & church dogma attached.

I can already see that you have an interesting view, Bandit. I'm still uncertain as to how I view Jesus. Is he man, or God, or both? What does his death, burial, and resurrection mean to me? Still searching....

is God just? does He demand justice? is He fair or is God a liar?
would God be a just God if he required blood & death of someone innocent?
does God impute sin from one man onto another? does God impute human sin onto himself?
does each man account for his own?

All questions I have asked myself, but to no avail.

in all of my studies, this is one of the deepest caverns & many- MANY paradoxes stem from this. my biggest thing is, people ask this question all the time, but i dont think they are sincere when they ask. so i keep it short & simple until i see the sincerity & honesty in the questions. IOW & IMHO- i dont think very many people really search the scriptures. it easier to just fall in line with tradition & church dogma.

I search, but I'm not sure how 'devoted' I am to study. There is alot in the scriptures, and I have read them through, but it's not an easy task to make sense of all of it.

one other thing to keep in mind- that which is born of flesh is flesh & that which is born of spirit is spirit. we are instructed to compare spirit with spirit & flesh with flesh. this is very important to know the instructions on how to study when we study.

What do you mean by this?

if i give you my whole view at once, it would be a 300 page book. there is no written dogma for what i believe concerning WHY. so, a little here & a little there & let's see where it heads. we may end up taking this somewhere else because i am not going to debate the scriptures in a forum like this with 20 different views bouncing around.

no no. i know better.

I prefer a little at a time. If you had written a 300 page essay, I would have read for 20 minutes, and probably put it down, lol! (Just being honest)

Although, I 'would' like to hear counter arguments, as I would get a better understanding from hearing all sides.

~Cage~

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Cage

My studies come more in 'pockets', lol! I get extremely involved, and then I get frustrated, and put it all down for a while. I'm not sure if 3 years would be enough considering my tendencies.

well, then allow your whole life & when it is time you will know. nothing wrong with putting something down for awhile & coming back to it later with a fresh outlook.

What do you mean by this?

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Cor 2:13&14)

see also John 3:6

Originally Posted by Cage

Although, I 'would' like to hear counter arguments, as I would get a better understanding from hearing all sides.

~Cage~

i wont argue the scriptures like that. i suppose if it is something i have never heard before then it would be interesting.
if there is a one on one debate or maybe 3 voices going at once, that is fine. but i find many arguments at once to be repetitive, obnoxious & unproductive.

I can already see that you have an interesting view, Bandit. I'm still uncertain as to how I view Jesus. Is he man, or God, or both? What does his death, burial, and resurrection mean to me? Still searching....

it shows me there is hope after this life of being resurrected into immortality. so when i die & I AM BURIED, i dont have to wonder about things & that God has an eternal resting place for me with Him, through Jesus. this is exciting for me

[BlaznFattyz]

To believe God is to have confidence in God to the point of obeying His Word. To believe God is to accept what God says as true. If you say, "I believe in God," but you do not believe what God says in the Holy Scriptures, then you do not really believe God. God and His Word are one.If you believe God, you will believe and obey His Word. If you do not believe what God says, it is God Himself you are rejecting.

"Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin" Here is the reason: God's holy Law declares that the payment of sin is death! That is why blood had to be shed. Forgiveness of sin is not based on man's plan, but on God's plan.

In earlier generations, God decreed that every sinner must present an animal without blemish and slaughter it. The innocent animal would die as a substitute for the sinner. Because of the blood of such a sacrifice, God could be patient with Adam's descendants and cover their sins for a time. But the blood of animals could not cancel the debt of man's sin, because the value of an animal is not equal to that of a man. That is why the Scriptures say that animal sacrifices were "only a shadow of the good things that are coming, not the realities themselves…because it is impossible for the blood of animals to take away sins." (Heb. 10:1,4)

The most important thing to remember about animal sacrifices is that they were mere illustrations of the Savior who was to come into the world to pay the debt of sin for the descendants of Adam. This Savior, whom God promised, would die "for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring them to God." (1 Pet. 3:18) As it is written in the Gospel "All the prophets testify about this Savior that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His Name." (Acts 10:43) Jesus Christ is that perfect lamb that died for our sins, so that we may believe in him and be saved.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

To believe God is to have confidence in God to the point of obeying His Word. To believe God is to accept what God says as true. If you say, "I believe in God," but you do not believe what God says in the Holy Scriptures, then you do not really believe God. God and His Word are one.If you believe God, you will believe and obey His Word. If you do not believe what God says, it is God Himself you are rejecting.

[/SIZE]"Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin" Here is the reason: God's holy Law declares that the payment of sin is death! That is why blood had to be shed.Forgiveness of sin is not based on man's plan, but on God's plan.

In earlier generations, God decreed that every sinner must present an animal without blemish and slaughter it. The innocent animal would die as a substitute for the sinner. Because of the blood of such a sacrifice, God could be patient with Adam's descendants and cover their sins for a time. But the blood of animals could not cancel the debt of man's sin, because the value of an animal is not equal to that of a man. That is why the Scriptures say that animal sacrifices were "only a shadow of the good things that are coming, not the realities themselves…because it is impossible for the blood of animals to take away sins." (Heb. 10:1,4)

The most important thing to remember about animal sacrifices is that they were mere illustrations of the Savior who was to come into the world to pay the debt of sin for the descendants of Adam. This Savior, whom God promised, would die "for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring them to God." (1 Pet. 3:18) As it is written in the Gospel "All the prophets testify about this Savior that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His Name." (Acts 10:43)

No, you didn't answer my question. My question was why does 'God' require a blood sacrifice? Why is spilling 'innocent' blood nescessary to cover and/or forgive sin? Is there some 'deep magic' at work here? Because, if God is infact 'almighty' then wouldn't he have the option to simply accept/forgive us on merit, and/or our efforts to do good? As is, it seems that, at least to me, he is either 'blood thirsty', and sadistic, (In which case, I don't know if I even 'want' to honor him) or he is subject to something more powerful than himself, and can't help it.

Again, why does 'God' require that innocent life be taken to atone for my sins?

Perhaps, this part of God's personality is nothing more than an idea conjured up in the minds of ancient people? (Blood sacrifice) Perhaps, there is absolutely no truth, nor demand from God for blood sacrifice at all? This would make God seem more humane, caring, Loving, and certainly more inviting to serve, and/or honor. (To me, anyway)

Things 'must' make sense to me before I can accept them, and this whole innocent blood angle makes no sense at all.

~Cage~

[wil]

Those who wrote and interpretted G-d indicated that G-d desired a blood sacrifice....it stems from Pagan religions which did as well...it was comfortable to the people...made sense to them....assisted in conversion...G-d had to be angry and needed appeasing...

Hopefully we've grown to understanding...G-d is. not demanding....is. Not loving....is love. Not forgiving....is forgiveness.

G-d is.

imho

[BlaznFattyz]

i believe there answer is there; however some may reject it or be blind to the truth. what god requires is your faith in his word. god says that payment of sin is death. if you do not believe this, then you do not believe in the word of god; therefore do not believe god, because the word of god is god. a pure lamb was sacrifice god had asked caine and abel. one obeyed, the other didnt. the passover, god said to put the blood of the lamb over the door, those that obeyed, the angel of death passed over. the high priests of israel sacrificed a lamb in the temple as an offering to god to forgive the sins of his people. god told abraham to sacrifice isaac, he obeyed, but god saw his faith and provided a sacrifice in isaacs place, because abraham obeyed out of faith and kept gods command. jesus christ the lamb of god and savior, died for our sins so we never have to sacrifice again, because he is the ultimate and perfect sacrificial lamb. jesus christ defeats this payment of death, for he is life from everlasting.

Originally Posted by Cage

No, you didn't answer my question. My question was why does 'God' require a blood sacrifice? Why is spilling 'innocent' blood nescessary to cover and/or forgive sin? Is there some 'deep magic' at work here? Because, if God is infact 'almighty' then wouldn't he have the option to simply accept/forgive us on merit, and/or our efforts to do good? As is, it seems that, at least to me, he is either 'blood thirsty', and sadistic, (In which case, I don't know if I even 'want' to honor him) or he is subject to something more powerful than himself, and can't help it.

Again, why does 'God' require that innocent life be taken to atone for my sins?

Perhaps, this part of God's personality is nothing more than an idea conjured up in the minds of ancient people? (Blood sacrifice) Perhaps, there is absolutely no truth, nor demand from God for blood sacrifice at all? This would make God seem more humane, caring, Loving, and certainly more inviting to serve, and/or honor. (To me, anyway)

Things 'must' make sense to me before I can accept them, and this whole innocent blood angle makes no sense at all.

~Cage~

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Cage

Again, why does 'God' require that innocent life be taken to atone for my sins?

Perhaps, this part of God's personality is nothing more than an idea conjured up in the minds of ancient people? (Blood sacrifice) Perhaps, there is absolutely no truth, nor demand from God for blood sacrifice at all? This would make God seem more humane, caring, Loving, and certainly more inviting to serve, and/or honor. (To me, anyway)

Things 'must' make sense to me before I can accept them, and this whole innocent blood angle makes no sense at all.

I believe Wil just said succinctly what I could waste many screenfuls and never manage ...

Indeed, why would a "Loving" God require blood sacrifice? Cage, I'm sorry, but as long as you apply logic, Reason (and I do mean with a capital `R'), and the Law of Love, you will never understand how the old cult of blood sacrifice continues to thrive ... today. I could not agree more wholeheartedly with those who opine that Jesus' death was unfortunate, rather than required, when it comes to our Salvation.

But also unfortunately, things are somewhat complicated. The blood is more than the symbol of the lifeforce that flows within (Hebrew nephesh, Sanskrit prana, Chinese Chi, French élan vital, English vitality, Egyptian ka ... yes, all these words are the same). The blood is so potently full of vitality that to spill it, is to release into the subtle world a tremendous bursting forth of energy, and this is literally food for a certain order or Deva, or Angel. Now if one pursues this, it can and will be found (in its full implication and esoteric significance) in the Kabbalah, or other ancient scriptures. I post this here, and if anyone doubts, just challenge me - I can and will find a Biblical reference. For all truth, can be found within those pages ... if the Key is applied.

If ever it were possible, the record would have been set straight long ago, once and for all - but that would violate free will, which requires that each of us ask, question, and deliberate, before we accept some version of the Truth which rests properly, within each of us. Having long ago asked this question and found the only answer that does not violate my own standards of common sense, Reason, and the Law of Love as I have witnessed this Law active in all the worlds of human endeavor (physical, emotional, mental and spiritual) ... I can say, without hesitation or fear of error, that our God is not a God of human sacrifice, let alone of Sacrifice of His "only begotten Son, Christed Jesus." (Dear Lord, I only appeal to Reason, Intuition, Light and Love - for a glimpse of this Truth ...)

Rather, I know as surely as anything - that God sent Jesus of Nazareth, and Jesus Christed, that he might show us the way (of Love, as He Himself taught it, in the fulfilment of but two Sacred Commandments), and that he did. He was so willing, so ready to sacrifice himself, that in order to accomplish his mission, he was ready to be put to death - essentially at the very hands of those he came to save, which to some might seem the very indication of failure. And I would beg reasonable people to consider this, rather than the superstition that has been steeped and heaped upon the good name of this noble individual. No, it is a tragedy that Jesus of Nazareth was put to death ahead of his time. He scarcely completed the mission he came to complete ... but I would submit that he did complete it!!!

And that was to demonstrate that God's Highest Law, is the Law of Love, and where Sacrifice is required, it is a willing Sacrifice, not the blood sacrifice of an innocent at the hands of another, even if this "other" were one's Highest God. For him who can solve this conundrum, the Path is clear. But so long as one insists on blood sacrifice (of another) as somehow the means and the method of our at-one-ment ("atonement") ... the Truth will never be seen. Am I wrong? Just ask yourself ... (or would you let dictate any mere handful of parchment, however holy this writ is taught to be!?!) ... and I do think, the answer shall be apparent.

No no - I only ask that each of us take to heart this issue, of WHY. And bring to it what whispers to you from deepest within, however difficult, or controversial, or "unpopular" - might be the answer. Any less, and I would put it to you: How do you know - that the advice of your priest, your pastor, even the closest of friends or family members ... is right for you? If what we really care about is the status quo, or what the "experts" have to say, or even what two millennia have lead many people to conclude, then fine, let us seek this out and rest content! Or, if we would settle for the advice provided for those twelve centuries before Christ Jesus, then fine, let us look to the Pentateuch! Or to the slightly more recent Gospels! Those four Gospels which were chosen form well more than 30!!! But let us be clear about the reasons for, and the inclinations toward, our choice!

Christians come in many shapes, many flavors, many variations, many backgrounds. If what is required is that one seeks to be "as loyal and sincere a follower of Christ" as one is capable of being, then let each of us fulfil this to the best of our own ability, and by being most true to our own heart, our own conscience, our own Soul, and our own Calling. Anything less, is to mold ourself - to a different image, than that in which God Himself created us!!!

In Love and Light,

andrew

[Cage]

^^I'm thinking you've spent much time working out the very same issues I am^^

Great post, taijasi!

Thank you,

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Cage

I fail to see how this relates to the fact that God has demanded blood sacrifice from the Old Testament to the New. My question is 'Why' does he demand such a thing?

Sooooo glad you asked Cage ! God doesn't want our sacrifices (never did). He want's our hearts. But as with the early Hebrews, giving God their hearts was few and far between, so a substitute came into play (sacrificing an innocent, for the sins of the non-innocent. Then God said "enough" you want a sacrifice, man? I will give you the sacrifice of all sacrifices. My Son (like Issac and Abraham), yet my sacrifice will be completed for all man.

God was doing something that man still hasn't quite figured out (as a whole). He sacrificed His only innocent Son for our sakes. As a father figure, He taught us how to be, grateful. Would you willingly give up your child for another's transgressions? No. He said, I do this, so you don't have to.

Like you and me, our children are our life. He gave up part of His "life" for us.

We are so important to the Father, that He would give up part of Him, in order to have us close...

And, His Son agreed!!!, and willingly took that step.

The only way I can corralate this to today's terms (and very crude at best), is my signing my 17 year old son's petition to join the Army. He graduated highschool early, and requested that I sign a release, allowing him to become a soldier. He asked, "father, let me do this". For three months I let that release form sit on my desk...for three months my son would ask me to sign it. I offered to go to the middle east in his stead (even).

Finally when my son came up and said, "This is what I want to do. And I want your permission...I won't let you down." Can you imagine the idiocy and pride of that statement to a father who does not want a son to suffer war, and certain hardship due to war?

I don't claim to know the mind of God, but I suspect that Jesus taking on the "war" over man, wrenched the Father's heart.

I signed his release.

"This is my Son, in Whom I am most pleased..."

Does that make sense?

v/r

Q

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Bandit

my POV is something i am sure you have never heard of before & i am pretty sure you will never meet another who sees it like it do.

i hold an orthodox jewish view of God & that God is ONE SPIRIT, not 3 or 2. i also hold an orothodox jewish view on the Messiah. the difference being that i believe Jesus did fulfill what he was supposed to as the Messiah & that Jesus is everything the BIble says he is including God manifested in the flesh.
I believe the DEATH BURIAL & RESURRECTION was necessary. i live without the guilt & church dogma attached.

Well, Bandit- though I'm still in the middle of working this stuff out for myself, so far I'm with you. I'd be interested in hearing more of your perspective at some point, when you feel comfortable and it's the right post for you to share more.

I never could understand the blood sacrifice and vengeful God thing in the OT. And I do not mean logical or rational understanding- I mean spiritual understanding. I've prayed over this, and studied the scriptures as much as possible so far, and heard countless sermons on it, and I still don't "get" it. And while some people may say that means I am not a Christian or don't accept God because this part of scripture does not resonate with the God I know, my experience speaks otherwise. I have a personal relationship with God, and I love Him. But the God I know and love and try to serve is not bloodthirsty and (in my experience) would not demand the slaughter of animals for anything.

I see the animal sacrifice thing more as a proper practice in terms of its social and historical context-- Judaism was not just a religion, but also a society and ethnicity. Animal sacrifice was a way to provide for the priestly class, a form of tribute in a way. Personally, I do not think God has changed one iota over the years, but our understanding of God has due to differing cultural, historical, etc. contexts. Our experience of God, and theories about those experiences, are framed by our very human limitations- both biological (our brain and foundation in the sense) and cultural.

I do not view Jesus as the final blood sacrifice, nor do I believe in original sin. I do believe that Jesus' death and resurrection were necessary to provide a means of uniting divinity/God and humanity. I do not believe Jesus' death was an unfortunate accident of history- He chose the cross. He knew before He was incarnated what He was choosing, yet being in a human brain and body, He still experienced the fear, worry, and pain of this divine choice. I have more thoughts on this, but I'd be writing a long time and, as I said, I'm still in the middle of my journey on this difficult question. All I "know" is that in all my prayer to and experience of God, I've never felt that He was vengeful, jealous, or found any joy in the unnecessary slaughter of anything or anybody. I feel His creation (animals, plants, the entire universe) is sacred and that He appointed us as stewards and gaurdians over it. We are told in the scriptures that God loves and cares for all His creation- down to the sparrows and lilies. That doesn't sound to me like an entity that would want us to kill things in honor of Him. If that view makes me less Christian in someone else's eyes, so be it. Quite frankly, my beliefs are a result of many years of prayer and experience of the Spirit, and I will not alter them because a church tells me to. I must be true to my own journey with God first.

I leave with this thought:
There is nothing we can sacrifice to God. Why? Because nothing belongs to us in the first place. We can only sacrifice what is ours to give. But nothing is ours to give. Our very lives, bodies, and souls belong to God. All creation belongs to God. My animals, home, possessions... all God's. They are on loan from my Creator. They are given to me because I am meant to be a steward of them- "my" money, "my" horses, "my" home- I am their temporary gaurdian, not their owner. The only thing I can really give to God, that I can really sacrifice, is my choices. The only thing that is mine is my free will. This is one of the reasons I believe it is so important to choose to follow Christ... I love Him, and it is the only thing I can give Him.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Well, Bandit- though I'm still in the middle of working this stuff out for myself, so far I'm with you. I'd be interested in hearing more of your perspective at some point, when you feel comfortable and it's the right post for you to share more.

I never could understand the blood sacrifice and vengeful God thing in the OT. And I do not mean logical or rational understanding- I mean spiritual understanding. I've prayed over this, and studied the scriptures as much as possible so far, and heard countless sermons on it, and I still don't "get" it. And while some people may say that means I am not a Christian or don't accept God because this part of scripture does not resonate with the God I know, my experience speaks otherwise. I have a personal relationship with God, and I love Him. But the God I know and love and try to serve is not bloodthirsty and (in my experience) would not demand the slaughter of animals for anything.

I see the animal sacrifice thing more as a proper practice in terms of its social and historical context-- Judaism was not just a religion, but also a society and ethnicity. Animal sacrifice was a way to provide for the priestly class, a form of tribute in a way. Personally, I do not think God has changed one iota over the years, but our understanding of God has due to differing cultural, historical, etc. contexts. Our experience of God, and theories about those experiences, are framed by our very human limitations- both biological (our brain and foundation in the sense) and cultural.

I do not view Jesus as the final blood sacrifice, nor do I believe in original sin. I do believe that Jesus' death and resurrection were necessary to provide a means of uniting divinity/God and humanity. I do not believe Jesus' death was an unfortunate accident of history- He chose the cross. He knew before He was incarnated what He was choosing, yet being in a human brain and body, He still experienced the fear, worry, and pain of this divine choice. I have more thoughts on this, but I'd be writing a long time and, as I said, I'm still in the middle of my journey on this difficult question. All I "know" is that in all my prayer to and experience of God, I've never felt that He was vengeful, jealous, or found any joy in the unnecessary slaughter of anything or anybody. I feel His creation (animals, plants, the entire universe) is sacred and that He appointed us as stewards and gaurdians over it. We are told in the scriptures that God loves and cares for all His creation- down to the sparrows and lilies. That doesn't sound to me like an entity that would want us to kill things in honor of Him. If that view makes me less Christian in someone else's eyes, so be it. Quite frankly, my beliefs are a result of many years of prayer and experience of the Spirit, and I will not alter them because a church tells me to. I must be true to my own journey with God first.

I leave with this thought:
There is nothing we can sacrifice to God. Why? Because nothing belongs to us in the first place. We can only sacrifice what is ours to give. But nothing is ours to give. Our very lives, bodies, and souls belong to God. All creation belongs to God. My animals, home, possessions... all God's. They are on loan from my Creator. They are given to me because I am meant to be a steward of them- "my" money, "my" horses, "my" home- I am their temporary gaurdian, not their owner. The only thing I can really give to God, that I can really sacrifice, is my choices. The only thing that is mine is my free will. This is one of the reasons I believe it is so important to choose to follow Christ... I love Him, and it is the only thing I can give Him.

i think you are on track there, Path .

i dont think God was being vengeful in the OT with blood sacrifice. i see God as a just God & he would just like us to do out best to be just & to walk justly with him. israel really did not have a lot to do at that time any way & it seems like it all just became this 'daily' routine after awhile built into the culture & religion. hmmm
i think i am a jew at heart, more than Christian - but an engrafted Jew.

i think God knows none of this belongs to us & it is all just borrowed. i agree with you... He owns everything. so i think when he asks for that little 10% back as in firstfruits, it is just our way of saying thankyou & i believe he accepts that when we offer it from our heart.

i dont think the cross was an accident either. Jesus chose that for the sheep to have life & to show us how much love that God has for His people & also that there is hope after the flesh dies.
i never view God as vengeful as in 'get even' only just, righteous & upright. I see Jesus as the good shephard & when we stay close, no one & nothing can bring us harm because that is what a good shephard does. he feeds us pretty good also.

we have a lot more in common than what you realize, i have just never finished talking to you about some of these things. like you say, waiting for the right opportunity in private i suppose. i also do not believe in the original sin doctrine, but i still see that blood Jesus shed was for the remission of sin & was necessary & like you say, that is what brought man & God back into loving favor. Every man is still accountable for his own doings.
God requiring innocent blood & God turning into a man- well, it does not add up the way it has been taught in church dogma. i think there is an answer that comes full circle, but i keep it to myself. too many traditions of men & barriers in the way.

in other things, this has taught me not to look for a dead end absolute answer & allow for perpetual understanding.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bandit

my POV is something i am sure you have never heard of before & i am pretty sure you will never meet another who sees it like it do. it took me 3 years of deep study & prayer to figure out WHY.
so give yourself at least that much time.

i hold an orthodox jewish view of God & that God is ONE SPIRIT, not 3 or 2. i also hold an orothodox jewish view on the Messiah. the difference being that i believe Jesus did fulfill what he was supposed to as the Messiah & that Jesus is everything the BIble says he is including God manifested in the flesh.
I believe the DEATH BURIAL & RESURRECTION was necessary. i live without the guilt & church dogma attached.

is God just? does He demand justice? is He fair or is God a liar?
would God be a just God if he required blood & death of someone innocent?
does God impute sin from one man onto another? does God impute human sin onto himself?
does each man account for his own?

in all of my studies, this is one of the deepest caverns & many- MANY paradoxes stem from this. my biggest thing is, people ask this question all the time, but i dont think they are sincere when they ask. so i keep it short & simple until i see the sincerity & honesty in the questions. IOW & IMHO- i dont think very many people really search the scriptures. it easier to just fall in line with tradition & church dogma.

one other thing to keep in mind- that which is born of flesh is flesh & that which is born of spirit is spirit. we are instructed to compare spirit with spirit & flesh with flesh. this is very important to know the instructions on how to study when we study.

if i give you my whole view at once, it would be a 300 page book. there is no written dogma for what i believe concerning WHY. so, a little here & a little there & let's see where it heads. we may end up taking this somewhere else because i am not going to debate the scriptures in a forum like this with 20 different views bouncing around.

no no. i know better.

You hurt the entire concept of Christianity. There is Father and Son, and Holy Spirit, and you are saying no? Jesus is, or Jesus was...this is insane! What is Jesus, a cheap trick?

your call...

v/r

Q