Why?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Cage

I found this in the Living Bible translation:

-- Living Bible
Isaiah 1:11 I am sick of your sacrifices. Don't bring me any more of them. I don't want your fat rams; I don't want to see the blood from your offerings.

Maybe we're past this, but Prober was sorta correct. Only, it was in the 'Living Bible' translation of Old Testament. (Isaiah 1:11)

You both made a good point. personal sacrifices were not working anymore.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

This is my take. In the beginning, a sacrifice was taken (and given), in earnest to God. The "scent" was sweet, because man meant it. He took his best produce, and offered it to God. Over time however, it became routine for man to sacrifice, and the "scent" became foul to the Father...(e.g. the best became "USDA" stamped for approval by the clergy. In short, it didn't mean anything anymore.

So the Son stepped in. Instead of sacrifices here and there, there would be a "One time sacrifice", for all men. The "Lamb of all lambs" would be sacrificed for man, past, present and future. Being both Man, and God, and Sacrifice, He knew what He was doing, wanted to do it, and was willing to let it happen.

Jesus chose to be that sacrifice, instead of us choosing what to give to God the Father. The Man/God gave Himself, so that the "scent was once again sweet". And He did it for our sakes (because He loves us so much), and the Father accepted that sacrifice. True, Jesus had His immortal life, but it is the mortal life that is so hard for us to let go of. I don't know why.

We cry at the death of an animal, we grieve at the death of a loved one, the Father must have been wracked with agony at the death of His Son. There must be something very special about mortal life, that we haven't quite put a finger on yet (not even after 2000 years).

You (lol) remind me of a time when I was oh, 20. My dad gave me his car. (65 Thunderbird Ragtop). I couldn't believe it. I asked why? He said, "Because you mean that much to me". I still don't understand why, but I appreciate what he did.

I know that isn't the same, but it is along the lines.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

I understand that sacrifice became routine, and I can see how God despised them, that they put little heart into the sacrifices themselves.

I can also see how that when we accept Jesus' sacrifice, it becomes a matter of heart, and maybe God appreciates that, but still our hands become dirty with blood.

This is also in the Living Bible translation:

Isaiah 1:15-16

15. From now on, when you pray with your hands stretched out to heaven, I won't look or listen. Even though you make many prayers, I will not hear, for your hands are those of murderers; they are covered with the blood of your innocent victims.
16. Oh, wash yourselves! Be clean! Let me no longer see you doing all these wicked things; quit your evil ways.

I don't know? I'm thinking now that God doesn't 'demand' blood at all.

Getting frustrated again,

~Cage~

[Prober]

God only asks that we love him (and our brother) and keep his commandments (all ten of them).

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Cage

I understand that sacrifice became routine, and I can see how God despised them, that they put little heart into the sacrifices themselves.

I can also see how that when we accept Jesus' sacrifice, it becomes a matter of heart, and maybe God appreciates that, but still our hands become dirty with blood.

This is also in the Living Bible translation:



I don't know? I'm thinking now that God doesn't 'demand' blood at all.

Getting frustrated again,

~Cage~

Prober makes good point. And as to your point..."future" sins are covered.

v/r

Q

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

We are spirit beings housed in bodies of flesh.. God gave us this time on earth to choose Him. Consider that our Spirits are dead until being born again.. and how does one become born again? Accepting the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made.. Blood is shed when a baby is born.. Blood is shed when our Spirits awaken to God.. We are new creations.. those are just my thoughts on this subject.

As far as God needing us? That implies a weakness.. lol He is afterall.. omnipotent.. omnipresent.. omniscent.. Im sorry but I cannot humamize God that much.

O.K., how about we're "useful" to God?

Chris

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Prober

God only asks that we love him (and our brother) and keep his commandments (all ten of them).

Isn't this part of the point to Jesus' sacrifice; that we are not capable of keeping the ten commandments; that we must be washed/cleansed by his blood because of this?

Is it impossible to follow the Law of ten?

Many Christians say so...

~Cage~

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

I wish to welcome Prober to CR!

Let us begin with the whole first chapter of Isaiah;

Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Isaiah 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Isaiah 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

Isaiah 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isaiah 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

Isaiah 1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

Isaiah 1:7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

Isaiah 1:8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

Isaiah 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Isaiah 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Isaiah 1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Isaiah 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Isaiah 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Isaiah 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Isaiah 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isaiah 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Isaiah 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Isaiah 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Isaiah 1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 1:24 Therefore saith the LORD, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

Isaiah 1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

Isaiah 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Isaiah 1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.

Isaiah 1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.

Isaiah 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.
-KJV
http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ent/isaiah.php

I want to make the point of selective interpretation here. One cannot pull verses out of context willy-nilly and expect to come to correct conclusions. Who was Isaiah speaking to? Who was he speaking about? What are the terms and conditions? What are the threats and promises? Is is a dream / vision (mythology), or is it real (history)?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Prober

God only asks that we love him (and our brother) and keep his commandments (all ten of them).

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 13:8-10 (KJV)

Notice that love for our fellow man not only fulfills the law and the commandments, but also fulfills the our obligation to love God. Nothing about sabbaths or idols or jealous gods here.

Now...back to the topic.

Chris

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Romans 13:8-10 (KJV)

Notice that love for our fellow man not only fulfills the law and the commandments, but also fulfills the our obligation to love God. Nothing about sabbaths or idols or jealous gods here.

Since you have identified yourself as a Bible scholar, I do have one pressing question: what is your status on Paul?

It would hardly be fair to quote Paul in your favor now, only to discredit him later. Just checking...

[juantoo3]

? = Who was Isaiah speaking to?

Ans = Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

? = Who was he speaking about?

Ans = the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

? = What are the terms and conditions? What are the threats and promises?

Ans = Isaiah 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Isaiah 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isaiah 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Isaiah 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

? = Is this a dream / vision (mythology), or is it real (history)?

Ans = The vision of Isaiah

[lunamoth]

Hi Cage, Welcome to CR. Wow, powerful first thread.

Here' something that helps me with my contemplation of sacrifice.

peace,
lunamoth

1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.

4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are proved right when you speak
and justified when you judge.

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

6 Surely you desire truth in the inner parts [a] ;
you teach [b] me wisdom in the inmost place.

7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

8 Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.

9 Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity.

10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

11 Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.

12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will turn back to you.

14 Save me from bloodguilt, O God,
the God who saves me,
and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.

15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.

16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

17 The sacrifices of God are [c] a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.

18 In your good pleasure make Zion prosper;
build up the walls of Jerusalem.

19 Then there will be righteous sacrifices,
whole burnt offerings to delight you;
then bulls will be offered on your altar.

Psalm 51

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, China Cat!



Since you have identified yourself as a Bible scholar, I do have one pressing question: what is your status on Paul?

It would hardly be fair to quote Paul in your favor now, only to discredit him later. Just checking...

I know that it's become somewhat fashionable to dismiss Paul. I've read Hyam Maccoby's book, The Mythmaker. But I like Paul. I don't get all wound up in the "circumcision" thing. I understand what he was trying to say. I particularly like 1st Corinthians 13.

How one understands Paul, it seems to me, depends on the context within which his story is framed: Paul, as a character in his own story within his own time, Paul in the context of the whole of the NT, or St. Paul- a much larger historical character in the story of the establishment of Christianity, and its evolution through time up to, and including the present.

I wouldn't call myself a biblical scholar Juantoo. I study the Bible, but that doesn't make me a scholar any more than pitching a few softballs makes me a major league pitcher. I try not to be intellectually lazy, but I'm a carpenter with a highschool education. I yam what I yam.

Chris

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Luna!

Good point. And soon after the Temple was built by David's son, and the Temple sacrifice was instituted.

I think the point you were trying to make about the attitude in which sacrifice is offered is quite valid. Is it not so with any form of charity? Those who give for the pleasure of having been seen by men to be generous, etc., receive their reward here. Those who give charitably with no thought of themselves, are those who receive reward in heaven.

[Prober]

I whole-heartedly agree with juantoo3 in not taking the texts out of context. The point is - what can we learn from what God has said to this audience.

China Cat "thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart...and thy neighbor as thyself...On this hang all the law and the prophets". "If you love Me, keep my commandments".

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I know that it's become somewhat fashionable to dismiss Paul. But I like Paul. I don't get all wound up in the "circumcision" thing. I understand what he was trying to say.

How one understands Paul, it seems to me, depends on the context within which his story is framed: Paul, as a character in his own story within his own time, Paul in the context of the whole of the NT, or St. Paul- a much larger historical character in the story of the establishment of Christianity, and its evolution through time up to, and including the present.

I wouldn't call myself a biblical scholar Juantoo. I study the Bible, but that doesn't make me a scholar any more than pitching a few softballs makes me a major league pitcher. I try not to be intellectually lazy, but I'm a carpenter with a highschool education. I yam what I yam.

This is close enough to where I am at that I cannot complain. Down to and including about ten years as a carpenter, before injury and circumstance forced me to get a Bachelor's degree in a hurry. But I would take some minor exception. Yes, you are a Bible scholar. It is evident, in your questions and your comments. Perhaps not a scholar in the sense of academia, but a scholar just the same. Don't sell yourself short.