Why? - Page 7

Prober · 04-25-2006, 04:57 AM

Quote: I don't get all wound up in the "circumcision" thing.

There's a joke there somewhere!

China Cat Sunflower · 04-25-2006, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

China Cat "thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart...and thy neighbor as thyself...On this hang all the law and the prophets". "If you love Me, keep my commandments".

Ah, dueling texts (insert banjo music).

But you see Mr./Mrs./Miss Prober, the keeping of the commandments is accomplished through the love of neighbor. Isn't that what the text is saying?

Chris

China Cat Sunflower · 04-25-2006, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Quote: I don't get all wound up in the "circumcision" thing.

There's a joke there somewhere!

Chris

Prober · 04-25-2006, 05:05 AM

To the contrary - the love of one's fellow man is the DEMONSTRATION of one's love to God, with the keeping of the commandments...(Mr. Prober)

lunamoth · 04-25-2006, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Luna!

Good point. And soon after the Temple was built by David's son, and the Temple sacrifice was instituted.

I think the point you were trying to make about the attitude in which sacrifice is offered is quite valid. Is it not so with any form of charity? Those who give for the pleasure of having been seen by men to be generous, etc., receive their reward here. Those who give charitably with no thought of themselves, are those who receive reward in heaven.

Hi Juan, thank you for the reply.

Actually, the point I was making is that a broken spirit and a contrite heart are the sacrifice.

peace,
luna

Quahom1 · 04-25-2006, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I know that it's become somewhat fashionable to dismiss Paul. I've read Hyam Maccoby's book, The Mythmaker. But I like Paul. I don't get all wound up in the "circumcision" thing. I understand what he was trying to say. I particularly like 1st Corinthians 13.

How one understands Paul, it seems to me, depends on the context within which his story is framed: Paul, as a character in his own story within his own time, Paul in the context of the whole of the NT, or St. Paul- a much larger historical character in the story of the establishment of Christianity, and its evolution through time up to, and including the present.

I wouldn't call myself a biblical scholar Juantoo. I study the Bible, but that doesn't make me a scholar any more than pitching a few softballs makes me a major league pitcher. I try not to be intellectually lazy, but I'm a carpenter with a highschool education. I yam what I yam.

Chris

Gee, I'm a carpenter too...not intellectually lazy, and have at least a high school education. I study the Bible...seems We three have much in common...digging into the Bible makes us as much a scholar as anyone who makes a degree out of it, however. So, your points are quite astute and valid...

v/r

Q

juantoo3 · 04-25-2006, 05:12 AM

Kindest Regards, Cage!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage

Isn't this part of the point to Jesus' sacrifice; that we are not capable of keeping the ten commandments; that we must be washed/cleansed by his blood because of this?

Is it impossible to follow the Law of ten?

Many Christians say so...

Impossible on what level? Daily, or forever? Can the commandments be kept, of course.

Having said this, it is human nature to be naughty once in awhile.

There is a hazard here I want to make certain is understood: impossible is not excuse. Do we occasionally fall short?, yes. Particularly if we sincerely know no better.

However, deliberate disobedience, especially prolonged or repeated disobedience, with the excuse that "its impossible to live up to," is not at all what Jesus and G-d meant.

This gets into our animal nature and our spirit nature, and the clash between them, and to which one we surrender and subordinate ourselves. We are animal in essence. But we have the gift of spirit, and the gift of free will in which direction we prefer to lean. Our choices determine our reward, our "karma."

Prober · 04-25-2006, 05:14 AM

Thank you Luna - You have said it.

Quahom1 · 04-25-2006, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Juan, thank you for the reply.

Actually, the point I was making is that a broken spirit and a contrite heart are the sacrifice.

peace,
luna

Hi Luna,

what does that mean "a broken spirit, and contrite heart"? Contrite heart I think I understand, but broken spirit...I'm not sure. Does that mean being so down in the dumps all we see are stars in the night sky? In other words, can't get much lower? Broken human? How (just asking), can a broken Human spirit be a sacrifice? I know I'm missing something...what is it?

v/r

Q

Prober · 04-25-2006, 05:24 AM

Broken as horse follows (accepts) masters bit.

Cage · 04-25-2006, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Cage!

Impossible on what level? Daily, or forever? Can the commandments be kept, of course.

Having said this, it is human nature to be naughty once in awhile.

There is a hazard here I want to make certain is understood: impossible is not excuse. Do we occasionally fall short?, yes. Particularly if we sincerely know no better.

However, deliberate disobedience, especially prolonged or repeated disobedience, with the excuse that "its impossible to live up to," is not at all what Jesus and G-d meant.

This gets into our animal nature and our spirit nature, and the clash between them, and to which one we surrender and subordinate ourselves. We are animal in essence. But we have the gift of spirit, and the gift of free will in which direction we prefer to lean. Our choices determine our reward, our "karma."

I'm not sure exactly where I stand here? I'm sure we can avoid breaking 'most' of the commandments by shear will power, except I have problems with one inparticual, lol.

I would assume most men do:

Matthew 5:27-28

27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I don't see how I can NOT fall short of keeping this commandment, juan.

Even so, my point was more about the idea that we 'Need' Jesus to cover our shortcomings, and less about deliberate disobiedience. I'd like to think that I 'try', but in all honesty...I fail often, and I suspect that most people do as well.

~Cage~

lunamoth · 04-25-2006, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Broken as horse follows masters bit.

Yes. Broken pride. Realization of our total dependence upon God.

luna

juantoo3 · 04-25-2006, 05:39 AM

Kindest Regards, Faithfulservant!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

(G-d) is so awesome so merciful and loves us so much that He gave us a way to atone and return to Him as many times as we need to.. and it is not something that is done lightly.. so we cannot take for granted the sacrifice made for us...

Its a debt paid in advance..

Just wanted to let you know you are not forgotten. It has been a while, you have been missed. Perhaps I should spend a bit more time around here, if I had the time to do so.

lunamoth · 04-25-2006, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hi Luna,

what does that mean "a broken spirit, and contrite heart"? Contrite heart I think I understand, but broken spirit...I'm not sure. Does that mean being so down in the dumps all we see are stars in the night sky? In other words, can't get much lower? Broken human? How (just asking), can a broken Human spirit be a sacrifice? I know I'm missing something...what is it?

v/r

Q

It means humility, but it does not mean being a wimp.

Consider the sacrifice involved in fasting:

Quote:

6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?

7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe him,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness [a] will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.

9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
"If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,

10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.

(Isaiah 58)

juantoo3 · 04-25-2006, 05:50 AM

Kindest Regards, Luna!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Actually, the point I was making is that a broken spirit and a contrite heart are the sacrifice.

Very well. The point I was making was the historic and cultural context. Granted, Jesus' sacrifice regarding Christianity later (over a thousand years later) reworked the whole sacrifice thing, but in the context of when Psalms was written and to what David would seem to be implying...

Nevertheless, we take what value we can from the teaching.