Why did Jesus have to die? - Page 2

Blessed87 · 10-05-2005, 12:43 AM

I agree with you, Blazn, good analogy, too. And mee, I can see your reasoning, Jesus always (to the best of my knowledge) calls God the Father.

I have a question (mainly for mee): Why couldn't Jesus be God? What makes that hard to accept? I'm simply seeking opinions, based on verses or personal convictions.

mee · 10-05-2005, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blessed87

I agree with you, Blazn, good analogy, too. And mee, I can see your reasoning, Jesus always (to the best of my knowledge) calls God the Father.

I have a question (mainly for mee): Why couldn't Jesus be God? What makes that hard to accept? I'm simply seeking opinions, based on verses or personal convictions.

because he was Gods son
After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved....matthew 3;16-17

Virtual_Cliff · 10-05-2005, 01:19 PM

OK, Mee. We get the point, you are a Jehova's Witness. The question was: Why did Jesus have to die?

For that matter, if Christ was a ransom, why did he have to live so long? Why didn't Herod kill him? It doesn't add up.

I believe he chose to give his life in the same way that Obiwan Kenobi did in Start Wars - to enable his followers - and all Christ's followers to this day - to carry on in his power. The Gospel of John quotes Jesus as saying (IIRC) "As the Father sent me so I send you". We are all the body of Christ, but this would not have been possible if Jesus had restricted his ministry to his own lifetime.

BlaznFattyz · 10-05-2005, 05:06 PM

ah yes, star wars. it seems to have alot to do with christianity for some reason doesnt it? so much so, some people even boycott it. why did obi won kenobi have to die? why did darth vader reject the good side? what is the force? lol.

mee · 10-05-2005, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

OK, Mee. We get the point, you are a Jehova's Witness. The question was: Why did Jesus have to die?

For that matter, if Christ was a ransom, why did he have to live so long? Why didn't Herod kill him? It doesn't add up.

I believe he chose to give his life in the same way that Obiwan Kenobi did in Start Wars - to enable his followers - and all Christ's followers to this day - to carry on in his power. The Gospel of John quotes Jesus as saying (IIRC) "As the Father sent me so I send you". We are all the body of Christ, but this would not have been possible if Jesus had restricted his ministry to his own lifetime.

the question that was asked of me was (why cant Jesus be God ) and i answered according to what Gods word tells me , and that is what it says in matthew 3;16-17 i do not rely on my own thoughts or what others say when it comes to the importance about who Jesus really is , the bible is quite plain Jesus is Gods son , not God himself as for why didnt Herod kill him , are you not aware that the bible is full of prophecies regarding Jesus and what happened to him.?
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him (Jesus)might not be destroyed but have everlasting life......John 3;16 how could we put faith in Jesus if Herod had killed him

(Romans 8:32) He who did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all, why will he not also with him kindly give us all other things.......As for star wars ... well what can i say other than

Yes we can imitate Jesus and what he taught because every thing that Jesus taught came from his father

(John 7:16) Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me

because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me John 6;38

Therefore Jesus said: "When once YOU have lifted up the Son of man, then YOU will know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things John 8;28...yes every thing that jesus taught was what he learnt from his Father . Jesus is the son of man because he was born of a woman , (mary)but before that he had a heavenly life in the heavens with his father

(John 4:34) Jesus said to them: "My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work......yes he came to earth to do his fathers will, so there was a reason why he came to the earth it was to do his Fathers will.

Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. proverbs 8;22-23

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; colossians 1;15

Popeyesays · 10-05-2005, 07:08 PM

Without the LIFE of Christ, there would be no importance to His death. Jesus suffered at the hands of men, not at the hands of God. In His life, He was the perfect man. In His death He showed that God had enobled man to such an extent that man's spiritual existence was forever and worthy to be in the company of God.

One (death) is meaningless without the other (life).

Regards,
Scott

BlaznFattyz · 10-06-2005, 02:50 AM

please do not confuse father and son relationships here on earth and what jesus christ and god the father relationships are. these are two different things. first off, you were born earthly father and mother, but jesus was conceived a king and messiah from the spirit of god and from a righteous virgin. this is how god wanted it, born a man to die for us, because he was born into this world, he is called gods son. second, jesus is the word of god, the son of god with the authority of god, without sin and holy, crowned with glory and honor. we are none of these with our earthly fathers. so to base your reasoning on earthly son and father relationships and with jesus christ and god the father relationship is going to be incorrect to say the least.

(John 10:30-33)

[Jesus said] "I and the Father are One."

The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.

Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

(1John 5:8~12)

[For there are three that bear witness in heaven:

the Father, the word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One.]

And there are three that bear witness on earth:

the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself;

the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar,

because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son.

And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

(1John 5:20)

And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding,

in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.

This is the true God and eternal life.

I pray that you see jesus christ, the holy spirit, and the father are one, because god is so holy, jesus christ and the holy spirit are different manifestations of god to connect with us.

mee · 10-06-2005, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

please do not confuse father and son relationships here on earth and what jesus christ and god the father relationships are. these are two different things. first off, you were born earthly father and mother, but jesus was conceived a king and messiah from the spirit of god and from a righteous virgin. this is how god wanted it, born a man to die for us, because he was born into this world, he is called gods son. second, jesus is the word of god, the son of god with the authority of god, without sin and holy, crowned with glory and honor. we are none of these with our earthly fathers. so to base your reasoning on earthly son and father relationships and with jesus christ and god the father relationship is going to be incorrect to say the least.

(John 10:30-33)

[Jesus said] "I and the Father are One."

The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.

Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

(1John 5:8~12)

[For there are three that bear witness in heaven:

the Father, the word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One.]

And there are three that bear witness on earth:

the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself;

the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar,

because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son.

And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

(1John 5:20)

And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding,

in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.

This is the true God and eternal life.

I pray that you see jesus christ, the holy spirit, and the father are one, because god is so holy, jesus christ and the holy spirit are different manifestations of god to connect with us.

Jehovah God, and his first-born son are in unity of purpose they are one in purpose and Jesus was willing to come down from his heavenly home to acomplish Gods purpose But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet...hebrews10;12-13

Jesus said to them: "My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work....John 4;34

(John 6:38) because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me

I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do..... john 17;4

Virtual_Cliff · 10-06-2005, 01:03 PM

Again, the question was, Why did Jesus have to die? Not who is/was Jesus. But since the matter has been raised, why did Jesus pray, in the Garden of Gethsemane, "not my will but thine"? How can God have two simultaneous opposite wills?

Anyway, just quoting irrelevant scripture does not answer the question. If Jesus's purpose was merely to be a sacrifice then it could have happened any time. Presumably if he had been killed as an infant, then the prophesies would have predicted just that. It is not incumbant on anyone to deliberately do something just so the prophesies seem to come out right.

This is a forum for discussion. A prerequisite might be that we are willing to question our native dogmas, rather than merely repeating them.

The fact that Jesus had a ministry means that it was important for him to live and teach, and important for us to take good heed of what he taught, and not just think of him as a sacrifice object.

mee · 10-06-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

Again, the question was, Why did Jesus have to die? Not who is/was Jesus. But since the matter has been raised, why did Jesus pray, in the Garden of Gethsemane, "not my will but thine"? How can God have two simultaneous opposite wills?

Anyway, just quoting irrelevant scripture does not answer the question. If Jesus's purpose was merely to be a sacrifice then it could have happened any time. Presumably if he had been killed as an infant, then the prophesies would have predicted just that. It is not incumbant on anyone to deliberately do something just so the prophesies seem to come out right.

This is a forum for discussion. A prerequisite might be that we are willing to question our native dogmas, rather than merely repeating them.

The fact that Jesus had a ministry means that it was important for him to live and teach, and important for us to take good heed of what he taught, and not just think of him as a sacrifice object.

yes you are right how can jesus be God when he prayed to his father in the garden of gethsemane , he never prayed to himself did he? which again proves he was not God the bible is always right, the dogmas that dont match up to the bible dont really fit with the bible but as you say there are dogmas out there but its always best to stick with what the bible says

taijasi · 10-06-2005, 04:07 PM

Thank you, Cliff. This is the first post on the thread that makes sense to me. It occurs to me that Jesus of Nazareth was put to death for the exact same reason as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Both men were challenging the status quo, and both men upset a great number of people (and controlling authorities) in doing so. Allow me to demonstrate (sic) ...

In Jesus' case, it was the cinedrion (sanhedrin) which most resented him. The Roman authorities also saw the threat he posed to their rulership, although we should note that Pilate wanted nothing to do with Jesus ... and even provided an opportunity to exhonerate him. The Jewish people would not have it, and they chose Barabbas instead - a criminal vs. the one who came as Messias.

This is just a presentation of historical fact so far, my opinion being that Christ was indeed the Jewish Messiah. But what we know from history, even if details are sketchy, is that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified like a common criminal (as Barabbas would have been) ... and left for dead (even if perhaps this was not the case). We might say he was murdered, in that regard - crucified by a world which could not (yet) accept him as Saviour and Teacher.

Certainly we must assume that Christ would have preferred to continue his ministry of healing, teaching, and demonstrating through loving service how Humanity is meant to live in cooperation and harmony - with each other, and with the other kingdoms of nature. To suggest that 30 years were spent in preparation for a 3-year ministry, whose wonderful crescendo of accomplishments was only for the purpose of an abrupt & anticlimactic crucifixion, with the most bizzare of all denouements - the resulting possibility of vicarious atonement & remission of sins ... is altogether absurd if not outright blasphemy!

That one must believe in such absurdity to be "christian" is, imo, one of the greatest triumphs of the powers of evil in the world today ... and in fact, the true story of the Nazarene and his great sacrifice is so carefully guarded in some areas, such as the southern United States (as well as the Vatican) that to challenge these ideas may well lead to lynching, "dragging," or - even worse - excommunication! *shudder* And make no mistake, lynchings & draggings are simply Biblical stonings in today's guise. Remember - those nice men that shot Dr. MLK, Jr. were certainly all "good christian folk" ... and so you see how worthwhile all this hogwash about being saved is. "By their fruits ye shall know them!"

Certainly we are all free do as Voltaire suggests in my .sig line, and thus it seems perfectly valid to me to believe that Christ was crucified and left for dead - but actually survived the ordeal, was brought to the Essenes to be healed & recuperated, and went on to fulfil his mission in the only way the world would allow ... incognito. And thus he labors on, with his elect - each of whom has the same power to heal and work wonders (mysterious things, because as yet unknown - certainly not "miracles") as he did. And he is aided by the Devas (or angels), who are known in life (incarnation) as well as in the hereafter.

Only last week I came across information detailing this idea (of Christ surviving the crucifixion), which at one time might not have made sense to me. Now things are different. Read it here, and remember - that most of the Bible has been edited, revised, reworded, chopped away, paraphrased, twisted ... and yet, yes, you are right, carefully preserved that you may enjoy it in its original English form, the way Jesus & his disciples spoke & wrote it themselves, telling stories around the campfire as it were, and recording them with pefect, godlike accuracy. Hint: There is a vested interest in keeping people dumbed down & not asking too many questions. Think that's a conspiracy? You're darn right it is!

Let's see, sheep ... goats ... and the injunction to be, "Harmless, as doves, and wise, as serpents." Goats, they charge straight up the mountain-side, while sheep will slowly wind their way around - a sure path, but slower, and sheep can be amazingly lemming-like. Just look around.

Yeah, I may be a snake, not a winged-one, and perhaps a bit un-dove-like, but I'll say again, if you're still asking the question why Jesus "died for your sins" ... then think again. Point-blank: Jesus did not die for our sins, he died because of them. WORD

the apostate

BlaznFattyz · 10-06-2005, 05:30 PM

jesus christ, the holy spirit, and god are one.
"For there are three that bear witness in heaven:the Father, the word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One."

god sent his son, to be born on earth, conceived of the gods spirit and the virgin mary.
"The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

jesus christ is also the word of god.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

god cannot come here let alone die here, he is spirit, so he creates himself in a different manner which is jesus, born of flesh and blood to die for for our salvation.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

jesus prayed because he needed to speak to god in heaven, because being on earth jesus was faced with all the same temptations of man. as a man on earth we need gods strength and we pray. this is very important to realize. not to say "see jesus and god are seperate". he also prayed to set an example of how man is to pray to god, and this is very important to realize as well. before christ came the laws of moses were not enough, but christ came to fulfill and perfect the Way. you can follow gods laws and recite them, but without the love of christ in your heart and his salvation, trying to reach god directly we fall short, which is why he came and died and rose again.

Virtual_Cliff · 10-06-2005, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taijasi

Certainly we are all free do as Voltaire suggests in my .sig line, and thus it seems perfectly valid to me to believe that Christ was crucified and left for dead - but actually survived the ordeal, was brought to the Essenes to be healed & recuperated, and went on to fulfil his mission in the only way the world would allow ... incognito. And thus he labors on, with his elect - each of whom has the same power to heal and work wonders (mysterious things, because as yet unknown - certainly not "miracles") as he did. And he is aided by the Devas (or angels), who are known in life (incarnation) as well as in the hereafter.

Thanks for the compliment Taijasi, but I have no trouble believing that Christ died. Neither am I very comfortable with the idea of an elite, whether of seers or priests or anything else.

The problem is that centuries of tradition have given us only one (well, maybe more) way of reading the scriptures. Some of those ways may be quite mistaken. Some of the NT authors may also have been quite mistaken. They were in some ways in a worse position to understand than we are today. We know, for example, that Jesus didn't just pop back to Heaven to get reinforcements for his imminent glorious return. We are also rather more sophisticated in our understanding than a collection of rather dense fishermen (no disrespect - Jesus said it first).

I am an agnostic when it comes to redemption. Jesus never mentioned it apart from one mention at the Last Supper, and not in all versions of that. He only made one reference IIRC to the Holy Spirit as such. These constructions were put on events after he died. I don't know: I think if he died to save the world (not just people - see Paul) then he died for all of us irrespective. One day I shall know for sure, but I think it will be with my last breath.

In the mean time I intend to live out Jesus's teaching to the best of my ability, knowing the dazzling beauty of God's love and spreading it as liberally as I can.

mee · 10-07-2005, 10:16 AM

So why did Jesus have to die,? lets see what Gods word the bible tells us ,The Messiah had to die if mankind was to be saved. To understand why, we must think back to the garden of Eden and try to grasp the enormity of what Adam and Eve lost when they rebelled against God. Eternal life had been set before them! As children of God, they also enjoyed a direct relationship with him. But when they rejected Jehovah’s rulership, they lost all of that and brought sin and death upon the human race.—Romans 5:12

It was as though our first parents had squandered a vast fortune, plunging themselves into a pit of debt. Adam and Eve passed that debt on to their offspring. Because we were not born perfect and sinless, every one of us is sinful and dying. When we get sick or say something hurtful that we wish we could take back, we are experiencing the effects of our inherited debt—human imperfection. (Romans 7:21-25) Our only hope lies in regaining what Adam lost. However, we cannot earn perfect human life. Since all imperfect humans commit sin, all of us earn death, not life.—Romans 6:23.

Yet, could something be offered in exchange for the life that Adam forfeited? God’s standard of justice demands balance, "soul for soul." (Exodus 21:23) So a life had to be offered to pay for the life that was lost. Not just any life would suffice. Psalm 49:7, 8 says of imperfect humans: "Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother, nor give to God a ransom for him; (and the redemption price of their soul is so precious that it has ceased to time indefinite)." Is the situation therefore hopeless? No, indeed.

In the Hebrew language, the word "ransom" signifies the sum paid to redeem a captive and also denotes equivalency. Only a man with perfect human life could offer up the equivalent of what Adam lost. After Adam, the only perfect man born on earth was Jesus Christ. Hence, the Bible calls Jesus "the last Adam" and assures us that Christ "gave himself a corresponding ransom for all." (1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6) Whereas Adam passed death on to his children, Jesus’ legacy is life eternal. First Corinthians 15:22 explains: "Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." Appropriately, then, Jesus is called "Eternal Father."—Isaiah 9:6, 7...so he died to give us back everlasting life if we want it

Virtual_Cliff · 10-07-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

Whereas Adam passed death on to his children, Jesus’ legacy is life eternal. First Corinthians 15:22 explains: "Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." Appropriately, then, Jesus is called "Eternal Father."—Isaiah 9:6, 7...so he died to give us back everlasting life if we want it

So if I deserve death, why am I not dead? Answer: Because I am sustained by God's love. If He wanted me dead, I'd be dead. He doesn't, that's why I'm alive, and will remain so at least as long as my body allows.

I don't know whether I'm interested in a life extension anyway. I'm not very afraid of death. You know with some Christians it all comes down to ME ME ME. How can you really serve God when at the back of your mind you're thinking "I'm getting my reward later". That's just self-interest not loving God.

I descend from my soap-box.

Best regards, VC