Why did Jesus have to die?

[Thomas]

The theologian John Milbank wrote an essay entitled "Why did Jesus die?"

Without going into detail, I shall highlight a couple of points.

Christ was the first to propose a journey to Jerusalem. If the account of the Passion is to be believed, then although he did not know the outcome, he certainly knew the risks, and so did his disciples: "Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him" (John 11:16).

What then follows a whole succession of 'disownings' or 'abandonments' that led to the Cross.

Milbank writes:
"Who then really killed Jesus and why? And why did Jesus submit to this? The only consistent thread in these [(Gospel] narratives is that Christ was constantly handed over, or abandoned to another party:
Judas betrayed his presence;
the disciples deserted him;
the Sanhedrin gave him up to Pilate,
Pilate in turn to Herod,
Herod back to Pilate;
Pilate to the mob,
who finally gave him over to a Roman execution,
which somehow, improperly, they co-opted..."

"...Even in his death, Jesus was still being handed back and forth, as if no one actually killed him, but he died from neglect and lack of his own living-space."

http://www.ctinquiry.org/publication..._5/milbank.htm

This is a staggering notion.

The point cannot be stressed enough. No-one among his accusers actually cared about Christ one way or the other. He was just a means of scoring a point, a squandered chip in the poker game of politics. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. Anyone, it wouldn't matter, anyone will do.

Hard? Yes. Brutal. If his original accusers the Sanhedrin really wanted him, not just anyone but that blasphemous Nazarine, if they really wanted to make a point and an example, they would have exercised their judicial right of execution for blasphemy - by stoning outside the city gates, as they had
done, and would do, others. As was allowed by Roman Law.


But they didn't.
In the end what killed him was that nobody cared enough not to.
It was just the easiest thing to do.

Make the problem go away.

+++
Thomas

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by mee

Whereas Adam passed death on to his children, Jesus’ legacy is life eternal. First Corinthians 15:22 explains: "Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." Appropriately, then, Jesus is called "Eternal Father."—Isaiah 9:6, 7...so he died to give us back everlasting life if we want it

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

So if I deserve death, why am I not dead? Answer: Because I am sustained by God's love. If He wanted me dead, I'd be dead. He doesn't, that's why I'm alive, and will remain so at least as long as my body allows.

My view is that it's like drinking poison or being infected with a disease. The more poison you drink and the more the disease grows, the more progress you make towards death.

We die not because we are punished and deserve it, but because the consequences of heaping on sin after sin is spiritual death which also results in physical death. In other words, every time we do something wrong, we are poisoning ourselves. This is what eventually kills us.

Think about it. Sin is something spiritually unhealthy. It's like we're stuffing ourselves with something unhealthy and one day we're going to die from it. It's unholy because it's spiritually unhealthy.

We all sin because Adam ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, not because he disobeyed God. It's because we are inherit the substance from the fruit: the ability to lie, to be selfish, arrogant, greedy, lustful, etc. We all know the consequences of these things on the world around us. It's spiritually unhealthy: we reap what we sow.

Every time we sin, we are harvesting death, so sin is the blight that kills us all. If you sow death and reap death, you die.

A person is tempted when he is drawn away and trapped by his evil desire. This evil desire conceives and gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is full-grown, results in death. James 1:14-15

God really doesn't have to do anything. If we sin, we will die anyway. All he has to do is choose who should live on Judgment Day. Those who are going to die will die anyway because they're infected with the poison from the Forbidden Tree. Those who are going to live will survive because God gives them the antedote that cures them of the disease that came from the Forbidden Tree.

The bodies and souls of those who are going to live will be raised incorruptible. Anything incorruptible is imperishable and will last forever because it is used for constructive rather than destructive purposes.

God isn't saving us from His own punishment of us, but our own self-destruction. He's saving us from ourselves.

[BlaznFattyz]

(Rev 1:17-18) When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

He is the one true living god with power over death and through him there is life and which fulfills the words of the prophet:

- (Isa 44:6) "This is what the LORD says- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

[Curios Mike]

I"m gonna go to a different take on this that I havnt seen anyone mention. Christ Died to proove it can be done! Let me explain:

From the fall in the Garden till now the problem with man has not been sin(well anyone sin in paticular except), but self! I.E. Selfishness! What can I do for me... What do I get out of it... How can I be the most blessed...OR the most powerful....Or the richest... When Christ came to die on the Cross he had to do it selflessly. The Bible states He was tempted, and suffered the same things we do but without anu gil in his mouth. And when they Killed him He was as a lamb dumb before its shearurs.

Yes I believe he was a sacrifice for our sins, but I also believe that his sacrifice had 2 sacrificial sermans to it.... It started when he washed the feet of the apostles. He wanted us to do away from self, and be selfless.... to place others before ourselves, to sacrifice ourselves for others(as he did).... Paticularly those in need. (What was it he told the pharisees A physician doesnt come to see the well, but the sick.) I can go on but I'm not sure if my point is making anysense... LOL I'll wait and see how you guys respond.... and maybe I can elaborate. Or maybe some of you folx beter with words knows what I"m saying and can make this a little plainer?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

I"m gonna go to a different take on this that I havnt seen anyone mention. Christ Died to proove it can be done! Let me explain:

From the fall in the Garden till now the problem with man has not been sin(well anyone sin in paticular except), but self! I.E. Selfishness! What can I do for me... What do I get out of it... How can I be the most blessed...OR the most powerful....Or the richest... When Christ came to die on the Cross he had to do it selflessly. The Bible states He was tempted, and suffered the same things we do but without anu gil in his mouth. And when they Killed him He was as a lamb dumb before its shearurs.

Yes I believe he was a sacrifice for our sins, but I also believe that his sacrifice had 2 sacrificial sermans to it.... It started when he washed the feet of the apostles. He wanted us to do away from self, and be selfless.... to place others before ourselves, to sacrifice ourselves for others(as he did).... Paticularly those in need. (What was it he told the pharisees A physician doesnt come to see the well, but the sick.) I can go on but I'm not sure if my point is making anysense... LOL I'll wait and see how you guys respond.... and maybe I can elaborate. Or maybe some of you folx beter with words knows what I"m saying and can make this a little plainer?

Before Jesus died, He asked the Father to forgive us, for we "did not know what we were doing". We fell from grace in the beginning, and we are mostly blind (of the mind and spirit), now, but will see the whole of it later. We don't know what we are doing. Jesus was not only pleading with the Father, He was reminding Him that we don't know the whole of it.

Like children on a playground that tease eachother or bully eachother then, we look back now, and wish we could take back what we did...because now we know what we did was so wrong.

When I was a young father, I had an 18 month old son, who showed promise of great talents and personality, and drive. In a Georgian spring fed lake (very cold), I was swimming, and my young son saw me so, he wanted to come to me (18 months old). He was so excited that he ran and jumped right into the 45 degree waters, intent on being with me, before his mother could stop him. Imagine the shock to body and mind when he hit the water...

Of course I pushed him back to the edge, while he tried to catch his breath. But then, I cajoled and called for him to jump back in to me...and he hesitated.

He wanted to, but he knew fear of the cold water. My calling him became insistent much to my wife's chagrin, and he began to comply, when my own father called to me "What are you doing?" I replied that I was doing what he taught me to do, teach my son to be tough, and have no fear, excel at everything...

My father then said quitely, that he was wrong in the way he raised me...and in that moment, the spring water became very, very cold to me.

I got out of the lake, but my son was determined to get back into it, until I hugged him and said it was too cold for both of us (he hugged me back hard, because he did not want to jump back into that cold water, not at all)...

My point is that Dad saw the error of his ways when raising me, and pointed them out as I was making the same mistakes with my children.

He did not know what he had done, until he saw me repeating his mistake with my own son. And I was young enough to still be influenced by my Dad to take heart, and not repeat the same mistake with my boy (but it came awfully close).

In the time of Christ, people were set in their ways, until after His death...then the fathers began to see the error of their ways, and now they are telling us (the children of them, in their writings), that we do not have to follow such ways. We do not have to make the same mistakes.

Matthew was a calloused man as he collected the taxes of the king, and Luke? He only treated the rich and famous for their ailments. Mark...who knows, but Thomas trusted no one. Peter was a hard working fisherman (probably with a sailor's mouth and attitude). Mary Magdeline? You figure it out. Paul was a bigot and self righteous.

Jesus had to die, in order to wake us up! Death is real! And it is final in this plane of existence, and we can't go back to fix what we messed up. Then He lived again to show us there is a new life awaiting (but we still can't go back to fix what we messed up, once we are gone). As we learn however, we can go and fix what we did wrong, WHILE we still live here, or at least make amends.

It's a two fold thing. Make amends here and now, and smooth the way for the hereafter.

Deeds do not get us to heaven...but covering debts do not hurt us in getting to heaven (I think). And learning lessons before we die, so we can pass them on to our lineage is not a bad thing either.

v/r

Q

[Virtual_Cliff]

Thanks, Q. I can identify with that story and probably many other fathers can too. You've given me something to think about.

Peace, VC.

[Curios Mike]

Thats not exactly what I meant Quahom1.... But very well put. I can also relate.

[elme]

"first off, nowhere in the bible is "jehova god" in the bible. i dont know who made that up or taught you that, but its not there.
second, yes there is a distinction what jesus knows and what his father knows, as in the exact time of jesus' second coming.
third, jesus has all the authority, holiness, and power that god desires, and sits at his right hand of god. to outright say jesus is not god himself maybe an incorrect statement from a human mind point of view regarding something spirtually supernatural such as jesus being born of the holy spirit and being the word and son of god from the beginning, as he did say he was I Am as well. i believe jesus christ and the holy spirit are god in different forms to do different things. i would say god the father in his original form is so holy he must manifest himself in jesus and the holy spirit to communicate with us. kind of like a big pitcher of water and pouring two glasses of water, yet they are all the same water. to reject jesus is rejecting god as well, and if you know jesus, you know god too."






but in the end .... don't we all agree that there is One God?

the intricacies, perceptions or interpretations do not lead us away from the truth.




There Is Only One God

[mee]

Originally Posted by elme

"first off, nowhere in the bible is "jehova god" in the bible. i dont know who made that up or taught you that, but its not there.

............That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. psalm 83;18 ........... seems that the word of God told me that............ seek and you will find

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by elme

but in the end .... don't we all agree that there is One God?

the intricacies, perceptions or interpretations do not lead us away from the truth.
There Is Only One God

if that were true, then jesus died for no reason, and the holy spirit is not needed.

btw, that is an old conversation mee, i said the words "jehova god" are not found together. the point was by putting those those words together, jw's change the meaning of the word from a trinity god, to a single god by himself. but i dont care to continue discussing that if its ok with u.

[wil]

Interesting discussion, I think elme was refering to being One God, whether you use the name G-d, YHWH, Spirit, Universal Consciousness, Allah, Great Father, Mother Earth, Krishna, etc. We are referring to the creator, the One God. If one wishes to discuss intricacies like Trinity v. Monotheism or Elohim v. Yahweh or Jesus v. Christ those are all different from what I read from elme.

And it is also true that discussion disintigrates when we go back and forth spouting the same thing. I always like in Covey's 7 habits, seek first to understand, then to be understood. I do find it amusing that when one indicates that the other always has to get the last word in...is actually attempting to get in the last word..since it hasn't happened here, I am effectively offending no one accept those who choose to take offense.

Life is good, Jesus died so we could have a few millenia of lively discussion, martyr, prophecy, sacrificial messiah, king of the jews... He nothing short of told Judas to do what he had to do.. I find it enlightening that Judas got the bread (the body, or the material earthly thought), but not the wine (the blood, or the spiritual heavenly wisdom)

namaste,

[mee]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

if that were true, then jesus died for no reason, and the holy spirit is not needed.

btw, that is an old conversation mee, i said the words "jehova god" are not found together. the point was by putting those those words together, jw's change the meaning of the word from a trinity god, to a single god by himself. but i dont care to continue discussing that if its ok with u.

whats the KJV in psalm 83;18 got to do with JW Seek, and you will find that the bible tells us that Jehovah is the most high .the bible never goes out of date the name may be pushed into the back ground by those who do not recognize it ,but not by those who make his name known. so ok if discussing the name is not to your likeing, so be it.

[elme]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

if that were true, then jesus died for no reason, and the holy spirit is not needed.

btw, that is an old conversation mee, i said the words "jehova god" are not found together. the point was by putting those those words together, jw's change the meaning of the word from a trinity god, to a single god by himself. but i dont care to continue discussing that if its ok with u.

whether i believe jesus was crucified and died for our salvation or not.... the Creator is. we see it in the Creation!
God is.
the Father the Son and Holy Spirit was explained in the analogy of a vessel of water and the two glasses being filled with water from that same vessel.... being the holy Spirit and Son being the same substance as the Creator, God.

so what...... i don't believe jesus is God, then i don't know God?
i believe jesus was filled with God. we become filled by the holy spirit.
not three separate entities. One concept.

i do not wish to upset anyone here.... just a question.... a concern
i cannot know for certain that the bible i read today is translated as near to its meaning of its original language of revelation. if i could only read the original transcripts......
it's scary to think that soooo many have had a hand in the version of the Book we have today. can someone tell me how it works?
does a group decide that they're going to make the Book more comprehensive and easier to understand by updating the lingo?

God is in my sharing these ideas with you and Loving all here. because God is Love. God is I am
How can we be wrong when we feel the presence of our Creator in our lives?

it's all really intricate and delicate and yet simple.

much love,

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by elme

whether i believe jesus was crucified and died for our salvation or not.... the Creator is. we see it in the Creation!
God is.
the Father the Son and Holy Spirit was explained in the analogy of a vessel of water and the two glasses being filled with water from that same vessel.... being the holy Spirit and Son being the same substance as the Creator, God.

so what...... i don't believe jesus is God, then i don't know God?
i believe jesus was filled with God. we become filled by the holy spirit.
not three separate entities. One concept.

i do not wish to upset anyone here.... just a question.... a concern
i cannot know for certain that the bible i read today is translated as near to its meaning of its original language of revelation. if i could only read the original transcripts......
it's scary to think that soooo many have had a hand in the version of the Book we have today. can someone tell me how it works?
does a group decide that they're going to make the Book more comprehensive and easier to understand by updating the lingo?

God is in my sharing these ideas with you and Loving all here. because God is Love. God is I am
How can we be wrong when we feel the presence of our Creator in our lives?

it's all really intricate and delicate and yet simple.

much love,

to know god one must know his son, to know gods love one must know his son, to know gods mercy and grace is through christ in which we are saved, and it is this reason god manifested himself in the flesh to die for our sins.

Old testament
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11
New Testament
...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14
...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4
...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18

If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."John 14:7

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by elme

so what...... i don't believe jesus is God, then i don't know God?
i believe jesus was filled with God. we become filled by the holy spirit.
not three separate entities. One concept.,

we see this the same. God is one entity & Jesus was a man. just a regular man like us. but the part i dont understand is everyone i meet who sees that Jesus was a man, always makes Jesus less than what he really is.
i just dont understand how it got this way.
Jesus is alive and making intercession for us to the one true God for all who believe.

Originally Posted by elme

i do not wish to upset anyone here.... just a question.... a concern
i cannot know for certain that the bible i read today is translated as near to its meaning of its original language of revelation. if i could only read the original transcripts......
it's scary to think that soooo many have had a hand in the version of the Book we have today. can someone tell me how it works?
does a group decide that they're going to make the Book more comprehensive and easier to understand by updating the lingo?

God is in my sharing these ideas with you and Loving all here. because God is Love. God is I am
How can we be wrong when we feel the presence of our Creator in our lives?

it's all really intricate and delicate and yet simple.

much love,

i also agree with this except for the bible part. the bible does not scare me. I love it & am thankful to God for it, because i would feel very lost in the world without it.
i believe in the bible more than anything & that God was involved in the whole process. i dont think changing versions is necessary because i dont see where updating the lingo makes it any more comprehensive. God transcends & speaks through the scriptures, i know He does & has many times for me.
i wish i could explain to you how it works, but it just does for me. maybe over time we can have some good discussions about it.