Why do people try to change Christianity?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

Actually re-read Genesis and you wil see God had purposed their destruction long BEFORE the angels got there.

not for economic reasons.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Chris, the OT does say what Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for. God told Abraham specifically why He was about to destroy them. Abraham then argued with God about the issue ("...and if there were ten righteous men, would you spare the city...").

v/r

Joshua

Right, but I think we should consider what being a "righteous" man entails. It's not just being pure and holy, it has to do with charitable action as well. That's kind of the point of the good Samaritan story. This Samaritan exibited the tell-tale behaviour of a righteous man because of his charitable actions toward a stranger. I'm not saying that's all there is to it, but it's a key element. So, there are zero righteous men in Sodom and Gemorrah (except Lot presumably). And the actions of the mob at Lot's house are an illustration of just how bad things become when there is no righteous human action. This is why, I think, Jewish tradition has it that the cities were destroyed for their lack of charity.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

Take a look at Genesis, tell me why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed FROM the account of Abraham's meeting with the Malik yahweh at Mamre.

Genesis 18 states that the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah was great, and that they comitted grave sin against God.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Right, but I think we should consider what being a "righteous" man entails. It's not just being pure and holy, it has to do with charitable action as well. That's kind of the point of the good Samaritan story. This Samaritan exibited the tell-tale behaviour of a righteous man because of his charitable actions toward a stranger. I'm not saying that's all there is to it, but it's a key element. So, there are zero righteous men in Sodom and Gemorrah (except Lot presumably). And the actions of the mob at Lot's house are an illustration of just how bad things become when there is no righteous human action. This is why, I think, Jewish tradition has it that the cities were destroyed for their lack of charity.

Chris

Ezekiel states that, and that the cities were haughty and comitted abomination against God.

v/r

Joshua

[kiwimac]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Genesis 18 states that the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah was great, and that they comitted grave sin against God.

Here is what Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the NT have to say specifically about Sodom and Gomorah.

Opinion among most liberal and mainline Christian and Jewish theologians has now reverted to the original Christian belief that Genesis 19 refers to a lack of charity and to ill treatment of strangers. Consider: In ancient Jewish literature, such as the Ethics of the Fathers and the Talmud, there are many references to Sodom. The phrase "middat Sdom" was used. It may be translated as "the way the people of Sodom thought". It meant a lack of charity and hospitality towards others; ignoring the needs of the poor, etc. In the Middle East, a person's survival could depend upon the charity of strangers. To help strangers was a solemn religious duty of paramount importance. See Leviticus 19:33-34 and Matthew 25:35, 38 and 43.

Isaiah 1; The entire first chapter is an utter condemnation of Judah. They are repeatedly compared with Sodom and Gomorrah in their evildoing and depravity.

Here are the sins the prophet lays at their door:

rebelling against God,
lacking in knowledge,
deserting the Lord,
idolatry,
engaging in meaningless religious ritual,
being unjust and oppressive to others,
being insensitive to the needs of widows and orphans,
committing murder,
accepting bribes, etc.

There is no reference to homosexuality or to any other sexual activities at all.

Jeremiah 23:14:"...among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah."

Jeremiah compares the actions of the prophets with the adultery, lying and evil of the people of Sodom. Homosexual activity is not mentioned.

Ezekeiel 16:49-50:"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen."

God states clearly that he destroyed Sodom's sins because of their pride, their excess of food while the poor and needy suffered; sexual activity is not even mentioned.

Matthew 10:14-15: Jesus implied that the sin of the people of Sodom was to be inhospitable to strangers.

Luke 10:7-16: This is parallel passage to the verses from Matthew.

2 Peter 6-8: Peter mentions that God destroyed the adults and children of Sodom because the former were ungodly, unprincipled and lawless.

Further:

The Destruction of Sodom


The Wickedness of the Sodomites

The angels left Abraham’s tent, and two of them turned in the direction of Sodom to carry out G-d’s decision to destroy that city.

The Sodomites were notorious for their wickedness. They had no consideration for the poor, nor for the passing stranger to whom they offered no hospitality; nor would they even sell him any food or water.

Once they had found out that Plitith, Lot’s daughter, had secretly given food to a stranger who was near starvation, and they burned her in public. Another time, when they discovered that a young girl had fed a starving beggar, they smeared honey all over her and placed her upon the city wall, so that she died from the stings of the bees attracted by the honey.

These and many other similar hideous acts of cruelty by the Sodomites and their neighbors of Gomorrah, had aroused G-d’s anger, and He decided to destroy them completely.

Abraham Pleads For Sodom

When G-d informed Abraham of his intention to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham pleaded with G-d to save the cities for the sake of the righteous who might be living there. Only when G-d had promised him that if there were even ten righteous inhabitants in Sodom, He would save the entire city for their sake, did Abraham plead no more.

Lot’s Hospitality

Lot, Abraham’s nephew, could never forget completely his uncle’s teachings and ways of living. Although he had been associating with the Sodomites for many years, he had not accepted their attitude towards strangers, and he did not share in their cruel treatment of the unfortunate passer-by.

Lot had been sitting at the gates of Sodom when he saw two strangers. He greeted them and invited them to his tent, although he knew full well that he risked his life by doing so. The strangers at first refused, but after Lot persuaded them, they finally agreed to follow him into his house.

The people of Sodom, having learned of the presence of strangers, surrounded Lot’s house. They demanded that Lot give up the two visitors to be dealt with in the usual manner. In vain did Lot try to quiet them and persuade them to leave the strangers alone. The more he spoke to them, the more excited they became. Finally, they threatened to kill Lot and proceeded to storm the house. But the angels pulled Lot back into the house and struck the attacking mob with blindness, so that they could not force their way into Lot’s house.

Lot and His Family Are Saved

Thereupon, the angels told Lot to take his entire family and leave the city immediately, for G-d had sent them to destroy Sodom. But Lot’s sons-in-law were Sodomites and refused to leave their homes. Morning dawned, and the angels took Lot, his wife, and two unwed daughters, and led them out of the town, forbidding them to turn back and look at the city. As soon as Lot had reached Zoar, G-d rained brimstone and fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah. The place that had once looked like a divine garden was turned into a sea of salt. Lot’s wife was too curious to obey the command of the angels. She turned around to look back at the city where they had lived so long. The punishment followed instantaneously; she was changed into a pillar of salt. Lot ultimately left Zoar, and he and his descendants inhabited the provinces of Moab and Ammon.

The Dead Sea

Abraham, remembering G-d’s gracious promise, hastened early in the morning to the spot where he had prayed to G-d on the previous day. The blooming valley was hidden by smoke; giant furnaces rose from earth to heaven where the proud cities of the Jordan stood; and the wild flames were rapidly consuming the land. When the devastation was complete, a vast lake of salt and asphalt, or bitumen, “The Dead Sea,” lay to the east of the desert of Judah.

The Dead Sea remained, and is now one of the marvels of the earth. The destruction of Sodom brought fear into many hearts. Wayfarers and caravans began to shun that part of the land, and soon the roads leading to the once fertile regions of Sodom became all but deserted.

Source: The Destruction of Sodom - Our Biblical Fathers

[Cage]

Originally Posted by shadowman

does that mean someone can know god, or "be ok in gods eyes" (i still cant get over the idea of god that realy doesnt think we are ok)

without accepting christ as their redeemer. I know a lot of people say love is all. some hindus also say they nkow god like christians because its all about love.

The truth is that no one has all the answers, but I think those answers start to take form when you embrace the Love of God.

You will know when God accepts you; you will feel it deep inside, and you will begin to value his spirit. I found God through Jesus, and I will always give him credit for my freedom...

Much Love,

Sorry I jumped in like that, shadowman...I felt compelled to do so, so I did.


Edit: I deleted most of my post...

[China Cat Sunflower]

In the Melchizidek story Abraham defeats the enemies of Sodom and Gemorrah and brings back all the stuff they took from the cities when they sacked them. The King of Sodom asks Abraham for the people back, but tells him to go ahead and keep the rest of the stuff as his rightful due. But Abraham refuses, which demonstrates the depth of his standing as a righteous man.

So, on at least one level, the story is a comparison between the righteousness of Abraham, illustrated by his material generosity and the fact that he uses his standing with God to beg for mercy for the undeserving, and the utter depravity, selfishness, and lack of civility of the Sodomites.

Chris

[Quahom1]

The rest of Ezekiel paints a clearer picture. As far as sexual sin or any sin, that which God hates is an abomination.

Oh, forgot:
Sexual sins of any kind are considered "abominations" to the Lord. See Leviticus 18: 18 - 30, paying particular attention to verses 27 - 30, which refer to "all these abominations" -- after various kinds of sexual activities apart from marriage have been mentioned. A similar list is repeated in Leviticus 20, concluding that God's people ought not to do these things "after the manner of the nations which I cast out before you." We find that the levitical laws also forbade remarriages of divorced couples, calling such an act an "abomination." Deuteronomy 24: 1 - 4. When we consider that Christ amplified these laws to include the lustful thought, who is without sin to cast the first stone?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

In the Melchizidek story Abraham defeats the enemies of Sodom and Gemorrah and brings back all the stuff they took from the cities when they sacked them. The King of Sodom asks Abraham for the people back, but tells him to go ahead and keep the rest of the stuff as his rightful due. But Abraham refuses, which demonstrates the depth of his standing as a righteous man.

So, on at least one level, the story is a comparison between the righteousness of Abraham, illustrated by his material generosity and the fact that he uses his standing with God to beg for mercy for the undeserving, and the utter depravity, selfishness, and lack of civility of the Sodomites.

Chris

Excellent point.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Excellent point.

Thank you!

There's another aspect to the story which suggests, and this is a small theme in the OT, that the sedentary city life breeds unrighteousness. Notice how Abraham stays in the country, whilst Lot pitches his tent "toward Sodom."

Chris

[Dor]

Originally Posted by RevKelly

The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

BBC - History - The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah

Yep I will put my KJV Bible over the BBC.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Cage

No, I'm saying God is Love, and through his Love we are able to find truth in the Bible. The spirit guides, and helps us discern that which is good, and that which is not. The Bible is a means for finding God, but I don't think it is meant to be taken so absolute. He is giving us an opportunity to 'find' him, yet allows us to fail when we deny his true nature, and attribute to him things ungodly. A good tree bears good fruit, but an evil tree cannot. This is why I pick and choose; I judge by spirit, and by fruit, as we are told to do so by Jesus...

Anything that opposses Love is error, and much in the Bible does just that, imo. I think that fear is the base of all evils, but perfect Love casts out that fear.

I am merely suggesting that change is a good thing when it comes finding the light of Christ. Jesus was our light, our example, and if we allow him...our saviour as well. All else lies inside each person, and it will either comfort, or create a raging fire.


Much Love,

The Holy Spirit guides you to Christ and the Bible if your guided away from that you need to question what spirit your listening to.

[kiwimac]

Originally Posted by Dor

Yep I will put my KJV Bible over the BBC.

Try this one, or do you prefer your Bible to the people who wrote it too?

The Destruction of Sodom - Our Biblical Fathers

[kiwimac]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The rest of Ezekiel paints a clearer picture. As far as sexual sin or any sin, that which God hates is an abomination.

Oh, forgot:
Sexual sins of any kind are considered "abominations" to the Lord. See Leviticus 18: 18 - 30, paying particular attention to verses 27 - 30, which refer to "all these abominations" -- after various kinds of sexual activities apart from marriage have been mentioned. A similar list is repeated in Leviticus 20, concluding that God's people ought not to do these things "after the manner of the nations which I cast out before you." We find that the levitical laws also forbade remarriages of divorced couples, calling such an act an "abomination." Deuteronomy 24: 1 - 4. When we consider that Christ amplified these laws to include the lustful thought, who is without sin to cast the first stone?

Perhaps you'd care to comment on the other uses of the Hebrew To'ebah in the textus?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

Perhaps you'd care to comment on the other uses of the Hebrew To'ebah in the textus?

tow'ebah means something morally disgusting. It can also mean an abhorrence or something abominable, an abomination. Its root comes from ta'ab taw-ab' which means to loathe or detest. an abominable thing, place or act.