Why do people try to change Christianity?

[17th Angel]

I thought I would chuck this into the debate.....

"What is wisdom? It has little to do with beliefs. These change year by year from person to person. Only one who does not dare give up beliefs because he has no wisdom will insist that others believe as he does. Cleverness learns something, but wisdom gives up some certainty every day."

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Prober

A thought...

It was merciful for God to kick Adam and Eve out of the garden since the tree of life was still there.

They could have lived forever in misery.

An interesting thought...

Hmmm, Adam (and presumably Eve) walked with G-d in the garden, and G-d cannot be in the presence of sin...yet the sin was actually in disobedience, of going against the specific instruction not to eat of the fruit...to that point there was no need for understanding of good as opposed to evil, things simply were as G-d intended.

Enter the serpent, able to walk and talk, who seduces Eve (in every sense of the word) and deceives her into partaking of the tree of knowledge, now her mind is opened and she knows. She then shares her newfound "treasure" with her mate, who it would seem hesitates and then dives right in knowing full well he will share in the fate of his mate. That fate was soon in coming, they get kicked out of the Royal Country Club and told not to return.

At this point we have: a serpent cursed to glide on its belly (snakes still have residual appendages, hips and shoulders), the "cake walk" is over and man must till the soil to grow his food (origins of agriculture?), woman is to travail in birth and be subject to her husband (physiologically and in general terms, women are physically smaller than men yet stronger pound for pound, able to endure greater levels of pain, and psychologically tend towards intuition rather than logic).

By chance, is this the reference then to living forever in misery, that had they gained access to the tree of life...that somehow that state would be perpetuated? Through their progeny, which includes us, it has been perpetuated.

Of course, part of the initial warning G-d made, was that to eat of the fruit of knowledge would be death into their lives. Sometimes I have seen this interpreted as meaning like a poison, killing them instantly, but I don't think that is what was meant even initially. I think the implication was that their physical bodies which were meant to last forever, would break down and wear out and come to an end. If the stories can be read literally, it took quite awhile for Adam's body to finally wear out, and only Methuselah lived longer among the patriarchs before the flood. But the entrance of death into the human life...and there are those working with the genome that believe they have uncovered the ageing gene.

Even this "fallen" state of Adam and Eve is idyllic compared to what comes after the flood of Noah, so...

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I thought I would chuck this into the debate.....

"What is wisdom? It has little to do with beliefs. These change year by year from person to person. Only one who does not dare give up beliefs because he has no wisdom will insist that others believe as he does. Cleverness learns something, but wisdom gives up some certainty every day."

True. Yet, without a rudder, paddle, keel and helm, one is at the mercy of the wind and tides. While I understand the wisdom in not being certain, of one thing I am most certain...without a foundation, all the rest is subject to structural failure.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Prober

There is no punishment. Just reward.

Very astute.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

By chance, is this the reference then to living forever in misery, that had they gained access to the tree of life...that somehow that state would be perpetuated? Through their progeny, which includes us, it has been perpetuated.

Of course, part of the initial warning G-d made, was that to eat of the fruit of knowledge would be death into their lives. Sometimes I have seen this interpreted as meaning like a poison, killing them instantly, but I don't think that is what was meant even initially. I think the implication was that their physical bodies which were meant to last forever, would break down and wear out and come to an end. If the stories can be read literally, it took quite awhile for Adam's body to finally wear out, and only Methuselah lived longer among the patriarchs before the flood. But the entrance of death into the human life...and there are those working with the genome that believe they have uncovered the ageing gene.

Even this "fallen" state of Adam and Eve is idyllic compared to what comes after the flood of Noah, so...

Death is merciful versus (the individual person) living forever in misery. I believe that, in the moment that Adam and Eve sinned, they (and everything) started to die.

Trivia - Methuselah means "when he dies, judgement" (or something like that). In the year that Methuselah died, the flood started.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

True. Yet, without a rudder, paddle, keel and helm, one is at the mercy of the wind and tides. While I understand the wisdom in not being certain, of one thing I am most certain...without a foundation, all the rest is subject to structural failure.

Why not trust the wind and the tide? After all they are simply doing what they must. By just being what they are... :\

[Prober]

P.S. Eve was to be pained in labor once a year or so. Adam had pain every day (in tilling, etc)...

[Cage]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

In YOUR opinion... Choose a better path. It isn't a prooven fact that what you do is better from say what I do.

It is only proven in the hearts, and minds of those who live that path, 17th Angel. I could never make you understand that path, nor could I convince you that path is greater than any other; it is something people must experience for themselves before it can be understood/felt/known.

Is it greater than other paths? Yes, in my opinion it is the one, and only righteous path. Although many religions can lead a person towards this path, and this way of life. For me, Jesus was the one who saved me; for some it might be Ghandi, or the Buddha that leads them out of the darkness of mind and heart. I can't say for sure, as I don't know the fruit of the many other venues so intimantly; it is merely speculation. I only know/understand what I myself have been given, and/or freed from.


I think we are all connected in mind, and spirit. Some place their value on the carnal mind, and the carnal spirit, while others place value, and embrace the simple, non threatening, and perfect Love of God, imo.

This is just how I have come to see things, 17th Angel; free to disagree, as that is completelty your choice. I won't judge you for it, nor will I try to change you mind; I only wish to plant seeds.


Much Love,

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Cage

It is only proven in the hearts, and minds of those who live that path, 17th Angel. I could never make you understand that path, nor could I convince you that path is greater than any other; it is something people must experience for themselves before it can be understood/felt/known.

Is it greater than other paths? Yes, in my opinion it is the one, and only righteous path.



This is just how I have come to see things, 17th Angel; free to disagree, as that is completelty your choice. I won't judge you for it, nor will I try to change you mind; I only wish to plant seeds.


Much Love,

I have seen there are more than one path... What is the purpose of a path? To get from here to there... There are many places... many "there's" And there surpisingly isn't too much difference between them.....

Then in your opinion it is glad you are taking what seems right for you.

I know I am free to disagree, as you are free to disagree with me, choice is wonderful isn't it... I too do not judge you.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Why not trust the wind and the tide? After all they are simply doing what they must. By just being what they are... :\

Because we are not water. If we were water, what you say would hold merit. But we are not. If we trust the combination of wind and water, then what protects us from the waterfalls, whirlpools, hurricanes and tsunamis? Our own common sense and good judgement, a bit of guardian angel watching over us, and a good boat with a rudder to steer it with (or a solid foundation underneath us). Not much sense, or wisdom, in being up a creek without a paddle... And while I have heard the adage of "going with the flow" or "let go, let G-d," I have issues with that line of thought. Perhaps it works for others, the more trusting lot. It doesn't work for me, I have to steer my path as Spirit leads, even if that means tacking against the tide and the wind...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Because we are not water. If we were water, what you say would hold merit. But we are not. If we trust the combination of wind and water, then what protects us from the waterfalls, whirlpools, hurricanes and tsunamis? Our own common sense and good judgement, a bit of guardian angel watching over us, and a good boat with a rudder to steer it with (or a solid foundation underneath us). Not much sense, or wisdom, in being up a creek without a paddle... And while I have heard the adage of "going with the flow" or "let go, let G-d," I have issues with that line of thought. Perhaps it works for others, the more trusting lot. It doesn't work for me, I have to steer my path as Spirit leads, even if that means tacking against the tide and the wind...

How does that good boat and rudder hold up agains't hurricanes and tsuanmis? anyway time to go home...

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Prober

P.S. Eve was to be pained in labor once a year or so. Adam had pain every day (in tilling, etc)...

OK, so the moral is that if you're gonna get into something you shouldn't, you should first get an accomplice, do the deed first and then let them get caught with their hand in the cookie jar? You get punished, but they get punished more, even though you got them into it???

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

How does that good boat and rudder hold up agains't hurricanes and tsuanmis? anyway time to go home...

Yep, any ol' port in a storm.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Cage!

As noted by others, it seems you have come a long way since last we spoke. I am happy for you!

Thank you juantoo, I feel not only happy, but I feel a overwhelming peace within myself now. It's quite amazing considering I have been fighting against God for years...

You have an interesting take on things here. I'm not fully certain I agree with equating citizenship with "belonging to" a religion, although I certainly see the similarities. And there is the historic interaction between government and religious institutions. Something seems to me missing in this assessment...and be darned if I can put a finger on it just now.

I thought the shoe fit quite nicely, but that's only my opinion.

I don't know that I would call humanity an "evil breed," I really don't think we are by and large. If anything, I am thinking we are kinda neutral with potential to go either way, depending on our free-will and internal desires. Like any good hedonist, we seek those things that cause us joy, love, and happiness...even at the expense of health and possibly even salvation. One need only look to Adam following Eve's lead in partaking of the "apple."

We all, Christians and non-Christians alike, intuitively seek that which we innately understand as "good." Now, what you perceive as good may differ somewhat from what I perceive as good, but we both seek "good" just the same. Where we seem "evil" is when we deliberately go against what we are trained to perceive as good. And we all do, from time to time, and in greater and lesser degrees. Yet, how does someone justify to themselves as being good when acting evil.

I can agree with most of this, juantoo; we do embrace the good, but then we divide the good, and embrace the bad also. Evil is relative, and I'm still working on what I believe morally. My 'rock' or foundation is the love of God, and from that, will my views move forward.

Now, I know the Nazi's seem to catch hell for every bad example like this, but I will go here again because it is a fitting example: Josef Mengele, the Angel of Death. Now, post WWII and the Allied victory, this man is guilty of heinous war crimes, and rightly a pariah. Yet, to place him in context, and considering the important contributions this man made to Human Anatomy, specifically the mapping of the Human brain, seems to place him in a bit different light, depending on perspective. Yes, he butchered many hundreds, perhaps thousands of human beings. Yet, his contributions to science are with us to this day, and are drawn upon by millions of doctors the world over, without which our understanding of the brain would be decades behind where it is now.

So it really comes down to perception, particularly the perception of the victor. We are all sinners, yet we all strive to be saints. Some of us do better at it than others, but a big part of the whole judgemental shooting match is perception.

At least that's my (probably heretical) take on the matter.

I think science can be a great bennefit to our species, and like everything else good can certainly follow the bad.

You hit the nail on the head when you say perception, but take into account the perception of the fallen. Not all strive to be saints; I don't. I merely strive to live in the Love God showed me, and attempt to share that Love with others...


Much Love,

[Prober]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

OK, so the moral is that if you're gonna get into something you shouldn't, you should first get an accomplice, do the deed first and then let them get caught with their hand in the cookie jar? You get punished, but they get punished more, even though you got them into it???