why do you believe what you believe

[LeoSalinas22]

Originally Posted by Operacast

[Regrettably, a posting has somehow disappeared from this page. Since I still have it in my Inbox, I'm taking the opportunity to restore it here without additional comment.]


LeoSalinas22

first off, i don't believe in God.... i know God exists. now on to the question. the reason my hope rests in God is because this world's way has failed time after time after time and again...failed! nothing is working. science and art just isn't cutting it! all i ever hear is who died, why did they die, earthquakes, wars, famines. never any good news. when will the day come when i watch the news and see, " suffering and death have ended! news at 11!" when? when does the war against war begin? i used to believe in man. now i don't. this is why my faith is in God. now and until i return to the dust of the earth.... and even after that! way after that.

thank you so much for that operacast! i don't know how you had this post in your inbox but you did and here it is. i got really frustrated when i found out yesterday that all of my posts were gone because of some technical thing over the weekend. i really poured out my heart on some of those posts. thanks again and God bless you, man.

[LeoSalinas22]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Leo,

Last one first...

The war against war has gone on forever and will never work...you can't solve war with war or hate with hate. Peace and love my brother, turn the other cheek, and love your enemy...tis the only way. And I believe that because it works for me.

Suffering and death ended? It is all part of life? Nothing is working? It is all working in my world.

In order for you to have a flower on your table how many critters have to toil, how many have to die for the food on your plate? G!d created it all and said it was good....who are we to say otherwise?

I know that my earthly unknowing self has issues as I cannot see the big picture...I know I tear over lost souls...but I also know it is all part of a plan that is not for me to understand. I know when the tree dies and falls in the forest thousands of animals, millions of insects and billions of microbes will thrive...and then when they die and move on more trees will grow....and it is good.

My life is the same...one day this body will be fertile ground...and it is good...whenever and however it comes.

Why do I believe that way....because I sleep soundly at night, resting in the bosom of my faith.

hello wil,

so you don't think that God is using evil to show us that our way isn't working. that the only way is His way? that of justice and righteousness? i understand what you are saying, but what about the rest of this planet. sure you and i live a comfortable life, but people are dying as we speak. dying needlessly. doesn't that bother anyone? it bothers me so much just thinking about it. i know God has His reasons, but still, it is frustrating. thanks for responding to my post. peace be upon you...

[Operacast]

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

thank you so much for that operacast! i don't know how you had this post in your inbox but you did and here it is. i got really frustrated when i found out yesterday that all of my posts were gone because of some technical thing over the weekend. i really poured out my heart on some of those posts. thanks again and God bless you, man.

Was glad to do it. I only regret that a much shorter post following yours was also lost and never arrived at my Inbox at all (I'm set up so I can receive alerts when there are new additions to threads where I participate; hence, my luck with yours; not sure why I never got a copy of the smaller follow-up, though [from whom I can't recall; perhaps that poster is reading this and can reproduce it for us].

I can say that I share some of the frustration expressed by others here at the two-steps-forward two-steps-back pattern that human civilization seems trapped in. Sometimes I even wonder if our very species might be in jeopardy.

During the '90s, crises like Bosnia, Rwanda, et al, and the international community's dithering over them, got me profoundly discouraged, probably because I had allowed myself to be sold too much on a general euphoria at the time (in some quarters) that had been generated by the end of the Cold War, of the Soviet Union and of the Berlin Wall, etc. So the Bosn./Rwan. crises et al were too rude an awakening for my fragile psyche to take:-). The hope that we might really be looking at a future in which war would really be no longer in nations' interests got me fired up. In my private life, I at first became a happier man, I decided to get married, make a life, stop being caught up in every Presidential election cycle, and so on. I have never regretted getting married, and I do not regret the happy life I have today.

At the same time, the endless addiction, on my part, to staying abreast of continual crises on the evening news gradually started returning by the mid-'90s, and that proved unreasonably upsetting for me.

I couldn't help wondering if our very species might be in jeopardy. Where was the promised consensus that society would finally acknowledge the equal worth of every human being, that we'd only thrive if we all pull together rather than separately? How could we expect nations outside the nuclear club to stay that way if those with the bomb didn't set an example by doing at least some downsizing themselves? Where were the promised freed-up resources to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, etc., now that mega-spending on deterrence for the Cold War no longer seemed necessary? Yes, these and similar principles had already been codified in documents like the United Nations Charter, the Geneva Conventions, and so on. But it seemed that the end of the Cold War brought us right back to 1946 instead, where international norms were as irrelevant as if the U.N., and similar institutions, had never been established at all.

I thought, "surely there are certain benchmarks that humanity has previously laid down on occasion that have brought sectors of the human family back from the brink of social free fall" - and social free fall, for me, is when a society's left-out grow to such critical mass that anarchy, feuled by resentment, ultimately threatens lives and property on a huge scale, such as happened, for instance, in the French Revolution. (It was this concern that apparently spurred FDR and his advisors to bring on the so-called New Deal in the 1930s, with its concept of the social safety net.)

"Somehow" (I thought) "benchmarks like the principles of Urukagina in Lagash, or those of the Greeks Solon and Pericles, or Buddha's pacifism, or Jesus's serving others, or the "inalienable rights" in the Declaration of Independence, or the Emancipation Proclamation and the Tsar's freeing of the serfs, or the pacifism of Gandhi, or FDR's four freedoms, or the Geneva Conventions, or the U.N. charter, had each apparently had teeth - for their time - in nudging humanity one small step forward and away from a social free fall. But somehow, examples like Rwanda or Bosnia, and the even more distressing shiftlessness of the other nations in responding, seem to call the longlasting effects of the great benchmarks of the past into question. What initially gave these benchmarks their teeth and why do they get so much scorn and ridicule today? Somehow humanity managed to emerge out of the jungle intact via villages, towns, states, etc., each of which tacitly adopt the notion of community, and without which none of us would probably be here today at all. What was there in each of the successive nudges to humanity's sense of responsibility for its fellow creatures that clicked successfully in the past?"

It was at this stage that I rather haphazardly started to dig into whatever common denominator(s) the key ethical/social pioneers of the past might have. I was looking for some pattern, yes, but I truly had no notion as to what that pattern might be.

I did, though, start out with one basic premise: Evolution is most certainly intrinsic to the development of each and every species - Darwin & Wallace have that dead right - and each and every species has basic needs that are either met in the course of evolution or are not met at all, resulting in extinction. Humanity's evolution has seemed to thrive in social patterns, and if those patterns snap apart through galloping selfishness and neglect, cultures perish. Unfortunately, today, even though we still can point to a few individual cultures here and there, there is one overarching global culture that is more ubiquitous today than any similar would-be global culture has ever been before. The reason why that's terrifying is because that means that if the global culture of today implodes, the resulting cataclysm would be more catastrophic than any cultural implosion in the past. Add the apparent disintegration of the ecology to that mix and you really have the makings for human extinction.

Maybe it's too big of a leap to (and others would have to judge this) assume that whatever ingredients go into humanity's incremental nudges toward greater caring and social evolution must be as real as any other ingredient in evolution. But I make that assumption. Procreation is symbiotically tied to the drive for sex, nourishment is symbiotically tied to the drive for food, sufficient energy is symbiotically tied to the drive for sleep. In each case, something eminently practical is tied symbiotically to a specific desire for something comforting, whether good sex, good food or a decent night's sleep.

I happen to view the eminent practicality of a sensitized responsibility/conscience toward all of society's members in the same light, frankly. I view it in the same way as I do procreation, nourishment and sufficient energy. Now, if the comfort element in procreation is delightful sex, what is the comfort element in caring for all our fellow creatures? That's the question I'd like answered.

Going by the historical record, the key evolutionary nudges toward wider caring throughout history SEEM tied to countercultural theism? But maybe that's a red herring. Can any of the readers here detect any other "comfort" thread that also runs through the history of pioneering altruists, or is countercultural theism the only one? Please? If you can confirm some consistent thread here, it should be bottled, because I honestly believe that we are staring down the barrel of imminent human extinction today!

I can just hear the cynics on Web forums everywhere saying "All that is nonsense: treatment of the less well off can't influence the future of humanity one little bit; we're all still here; so stop being a pain", and bla bla bla bla bla. Well, I don't choose to complacently accept the extinction of humanity because of stubborn stupidity, arrogance, shortsightedness, stunted attention span, selfishness, greed and violence.

Cheers (.......er.........I guess.......),

Operacast

[flowperson]

Operacast...

There is a still small voice that is in all humans. I hear it all of the time.

I just read it in your wonderfully descriptive and accurate post. It whispers loudly in artists and creative people of all kinds. But who runs and controls the world ? Not us. Not them.

Research has proven that taking care of others results in a better quality of life for the care-giver(s). Of course if money is linked to that process, somehow the promised benefits for those who care is profoundly diminished and de-emphasized.

It becomes less meaningful and disconnected from the emotional reward and feedback systems that function in all of life. People need to get re-connected to their and each others' emotional centers. How that's going to happen is beyond me, but it must, or as you say we will comtinue to be our own worst enemies.

Thank you for your heartfelt thoughts and ideas.

flow....

[LeoSalinas22]

hello operacast,

wow, amazing post! thanks for sharing that. you are a smart one, my friend. may i ask you a question? what are your thoughts on God. you don't have to answer. i don't want to evangalize to you at all for that is not my style whatsoever. before i started to gain knowledge on God, i too, sought salvation for mankind through the methods of this world. i know you notice that man's methods aren't working anymore, that there has to be another way, but the fact is that nothing we ever do is going to work. well, hope to hear from you soon. peace be upon you...

[Operacast]

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

hello operacast,

wow, amazing post! thanks for sharing that. you are a smart one, my friend. may i ask you a question? what are your thoughts on God. you don't have to answer.

No problem. I expanded at length on my thoughts of who and what deity is in a previous post at

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...07-post19.html

(It's a bit of a slog, I'm afraid........)

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

i don't want to evangalize to you at all for that is not my style whatsoever. before i started to gain knowledge on God, i too, sought salvation for mankind through the methods of this world. i know you notice that man's methods aren't working anymore, that there has to be another way, but the fact is that nothing we ever do is going to work.

Actually, there I might not entirely agree. It seems to me that certain breakthroughs of a sort have occurred for us during the last 5000 years or so, and it's been the synergy of selfless human beings and deity together that have brought these about. Deity works through us -- as I see it -- and only when we don't respond ........ well ....... "Jesus wept".

And peace be on you,

Operacast

[mee]

why do you believe what you believe.................... because its the truth

[Operacast]

Originally Posted by mee

why do you believe what you believe.................... because its the truth

As a believer myself, I also believe in the experiences and utterances of clearly exceptional humans who have lived their lives solely for others (Buddha, Socrates, Jesus, and so on). Such people have probably experienced the divine in some very direct way that others haven't. So what they say is critical.

Personally, while I believe in a God, and in what lofty humans like these three have said about God, I have a problem in believing in a Heaven that is waiting for us -- at least, a Heaven as it's been described to us. Why? Because Heaven has been described as a place where one can experience perfect bliss, and that would seem impossible for me, were there a Hell. I would be too conscious in Heaven that certain souls would be undergoing indescribably excruciating torments in Hell with no hope of surcease, and that would spoil my happiness. So Heaven could not be a place of perfect contentment for me.

Even the most warped of human beings lives out a life inflicting horrible misery and destruction for a period of a hundred years or so, maximum. The results of that misery may play out until everyone affected is also gone, which would mean a hundred years in addition at the most. Thus, the duration of the misery that someone horrible has inflicted involves maybe two hundred years at the most. Why would someone who inflicted two hundred years of misery on Planet Earth, at the most, deserve an eternity of total agony rather than two hundred years or so of such agony? This thought would make Heaven less than perfect bliss for me.

Yes, I would be grateful to be there, of course. But my contentment would not be total because of empathy for any suffering in Hell that would be in excess of two hundred years -- which means that I cannot believe in every jot and tittle of the traditional description of Heaven, and our future unequivocally blissful experience of it, as making much sense.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Operacast

[Dondi]

....'Cause it works...for me anyhow.

[greymare]

thats just it .........I dont believe.... do I? I dont know. When something just makes absolutley no sense to me I cannot believe it. (as per my discussions with mee) I must be on e of these that need proof. tangible proof. I dunno. My world is so practical that even spiritualism is a fancy for me. My major problem is with the bible. Everything seems to be based onit. and I have a problem with it. Its got good stories and lots of lessons to be learnt but I cannnot and do not take it literally. and then there is every crackpot under the sun quoteing from it to back themselves and their faith. See what I mean. but its ok cos Im still looking and while Im looking Im open to ideas. I guess thats why Im here.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by greymare

My major problem is with the bible. Everything seems to be based onit. and I have a problem with it.

Not Everything. The Holy Qur'an isn't based on the christian bible....

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Not Everything. The Holy Qur'an isn't based on the christian bible....

Where would it get its stories of Jesus without it? For that matter where would it have gotten its stories of Moses and the old testament, for it was Christians who produced and distributed the books and pamphlets widely. The prophet (pbuh) would probably not have had access to them without.

[Ahanu]

To me, the purpose of religion is to get rid of the demons in our own hearts. Because I am sinful, I believe what I believe in order to make my heart pure.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by greymare

My major problem is with the bible. Everything seems to be based onit. and I have a problem with it.

Assuming by "everything" grey, you mean religious teachings and not, well everything (you know car maintenance manuals n stuff): Are you sure? What about religious teachings that pre-date the Bible; they can't be based on the Bible can they? (e.g. the Vedas, the Tripitaka…)

s.

[greymare]

tripitaka........?????I thought that was just Monkeys travelling companion along with pigsy and the other guy. ( If you dont know the tv show Monkey Magic then please ignore this post)(whoooshes off on a cloud)