Why does Baha'i accept Shia and not Sunni?

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Imran wrote:

If you want Shiahs to accept the Bab just like that. It will not happen. But yes, if we can see something from our Prophet and Imams that yes, someone even closely resembling the Bab will be the Mahdi, then it will be good.

My comment:
What I would want is for there to be more freedom of worship in Iran so people could independently find truth by themselves without state intervention or coercion.
- Art

Uh, huh. We're back to Iran. Why can't we answer the question. Which prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill. When I read this, I wonder, why I am the only person who is accused of hijacking threads.

Regards, as always
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Try reading the book "Thief in the Night" by Bill Sears. It's more from a Christian perspective but still excelllent! It's very inexpensive and can be obtained through many outlets and the Baha'i Distribution Trust:

Bahai Distribution Service

This site has a wealth of other material as well.

- Art

Thanks Art, once again for a very helpful link. Is there something on this topic from an Islamic perspective.

Regards, as always
Imran

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Uh, huh. We're back to Iran. Why can't we answer the question. Which prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill. When I read this, I wonder, why I am the only person who is accused of hijacking threads.

Regards, as always
Imran

We're back to Iran because our brethren are dying and being persecuted there. What is YOUR attitude to the persecution of Baha`i's in Iran. You said they should go, but you ignore the fact that the government will not allow them to leave legally without recanting their faith first.

Where is the justice in that? Muhammad Who said there should be no compulsion in religion would hide His face in shame at the actions of the Iranian Government.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

Imran,

What did Muhammad say was "proof" of the Qur'an?

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Imran,

What did Muhammad say was "proof" of the Qur'an?

Regards,
Scott

Scott:

you're hijacking this thread!!

(just joking!) :-)

Scott, lets finish the discussion on the Bab being the Mahdi please. Inshallah, if Allah grants us life, we can always discuss about the proofs of the Quran, which incidentally both Muslims and Bahais believe in.

But the bone of contention is the Bab being the Mahdi. I have probably asked this question 50 times and yet I have received no reply from a Bahai with an Islamic source. Ironic considering that all Bahais believe in it but seem to shy from substantiating what is genuinely a pertinent question.

Before signing off, let me tell you why.

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) informed us that Islam will not end till the reappearance of the Mahdi. The reappearance of the Mahdi will be followed by Qiyamat. So be it.

If the Bab is not the Mahdi, then from an Islamic perspective, it is some person else. Who is that Mahdi, we can all come to a conclusion later. But it also means that Islam is still in force as the last divine religion.

I fear death - noth death itself, but what happens after death. When I die and am questioned in the grave, I want to make sure, I have the right answers backed by reasoning and not by blind faith.

Tell me what prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill. This is a statement which is so liberally used by the Bahais (though over the last 12 months or so, the official Bahai web site desists from saying so) and it is invariably followed by saying that the Bab prophecised the coming of One Whom Allah Will Manifest - lets first establish that the Bab had some standing in the first place before expecting us ordinary Muslims to take him seriously.

And try and understand our skepticism - we are a community which has seen probably the most number of fraudsters - individuals who claimed to be the prophet, the Mahdi etc. Why is my questions being viewed with such suspicion. Lets just answer the question and move ahead.

I hope it is clear where I am coming from.

Regards, as always
Imran

[Popeyesays]

"I hope it is clear where I am coming from."

Imran,

Judging by your slipperiness here and your website, where you come from is all too obvious.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Scott:

you're hijacking this thread!!

(just joking!) :-)

Scott, lets finish the discussion on the Bab being the Mahdi please. Inshallah, if Allah grants us life, we can always discuss about the proofs of the Quran, which incidentally both Muslims and Bahais believe in.

But the bone of contention is the Bab being the Mahdi. I have probably asked this question 50 times and yet I have received no reply from a Bahai with an Islamic source. Ironic considering that all Bahais believe in it but seem to shy from substantiating what is genuinely a pertinent question.

Before signing off, let me tell you why.

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) informed us that Islam will not end till the reappearance of the Mahdi. The reappearance of the Mahdi will be followed by Qiyamat. So be it.

If the Bab is not the Mahdi, then from an Islamic perspective, it is some person else. Who is that Mahdi, we can all come to a conclusion later. But it also means that Islam is still in force as the last divine religion.

I fear death - noth death itself, but what happens after death. When I die and am questioned in the grave, I want to make sure, I have the right answers backed by reasoning and not by blind faith.

Tell me what prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill. This is a statement which is so liberally used by the Bahais (though over the last 12 months or so, the official Bahai web site desists from saying so) and it is invariably followed by saying that the Bab prophecised the coming of One Whom Allah Will Manifest - lets first establish that the Bab had some standing in the first place before expecting us ordinary Muslims to take him seriously.

And try and understand our skepticism - we are a community which has seen probably the most number of fraudsters - individuals who claimed to be the prophet, the Mahdi etc. Why is my questions being viewed with such suspicion. Lets just answer the question and move ahead.

I hope it is clear where I am coming from.

Regards, as always
Imran

To get back to the topic. The proofs of the Qur'an and the proofs of the Bab and Baha`u'llah should be just the same.

So, I ask: What did Muhammad say was proof of the Qur'an? Once we know that to your satisfaction we can apply the same measure to the claims of the Bab and Baha`u'llah.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

To get back to the topic. The proofs of the Qur'an and the proofs of the Bab and Baha`u'llah should be just the same.
So, I ask: What did Muhammad say was proof of the Qur'an? Once we know that to your satisfaction we can apply the same measure to the claims of the Bab and Baha`u'llah.
Regards,
Scott

Nope, I am not falling for that.

"Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the Hidden Imam." What were these prophecies? We are not discussing miracles here.

Regards, as always
Imran Shaykh

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

"I hope it is clear where I am coming from."

Imran,

Judging by your slipperiness here and your website, where you come from is all too obvious.

Regards,
Scott

Slipperiness or otherwise does not matter to me. Can you enlighten me on how the Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the Hidden Imam from Islamic sources. Changing the topic to Iran, Mohammed miracle of the Quran etc is not something I am going to fall for.

It is such an assertive statement made so casually by the Bahais at all forums. So why cant it be substantiated independently by the Bahais. Why do you have to lean on my response on how the Quran was a miracle for the Prophet (pbuh) to substantiate the Bab. If you really want to know my view on the Prophet v/s the Bab, go read my web site or permit me to link it here.

Request your answer to the question - What prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill?

Regards, as always
Imran

[arthra]

Actually we have been responding this question of the Bab fulfilling the prophecies of the Return of the Twelfth Imam and the Mahdi.

Here's a summary of the references I've personally posted and I've expanded some of the salient areas to clarify:

Muhammad al-Mahdi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and where the Baha'i view is mentioned:

"Bahá'ís believe that the Imam Mahdi has already returned and fulfilled all the prophecies, many of them in a symbolic sense, in the person of Siyyid `Alí Muhammad-i-Shírází, known as the Báb (1819-1850). The Shaykhi movement of the early 19th century claimed to reestablish the connection to the hidden Imam, and on the night of 22 May 1844, the Báb declared that he was the "Gate" to the Promised One of all religions. In 1848 the Báb and his followers began to teach more openly, and the Báb was publicly executed in 1850."

You'll note above how the Shaykhi movement claimed to have reestablished connection with the Hidden Imam? The Shaykhi movement is an important starting point to understand the early Babi history...many of the students of Shaykh Ahmad and Siyyid Kazim became followers of the Bab, thus the connection.

On July 30th 2006 I posted this information:

"On the other hand, the last Imam disappeared in the year 260 of the Hegira; it is at that time that the prophetic manifestation is completed and that `The door of science is closed.' But Mufaddal questioned the Imam Sadiq as to the signs of the coming of the Mihdi and the Imam answered: `He will appear in the year sixty and his name will be glorified.' This means in the year 1260 which is precisely the year of the manifestation of the Bab.

Cited from "The Dawn Breakers" Chapter XIII

Also on July 30th I posted this information:

All the Imams were put to death except perhaps the last, who died as a child, in 260, and was succeeded for sixty-nine years by four successive "Gates" (abvab-i-arba'ih), who were known as his intermediaries. Then there was utter silence in Islam till the rise of the Báb in 1260 (the surih of Adoration states: "From the Heaven to the Earth He governeth all things: hereafter shall they come up to Him on a day whose length shall be a thousand of such years as ye reckon." (32:4). Hence the importance of the "Year Sixty.")

(Marzieh Gail, Six Lessons on Islam, p. 33)

On August 7th I posted this information:

Despite the historical improbability of a Twelfth Imam, the existence of traditions attesting his occultation and eventual return created a kind of messianic determinism, in which a body of speculation represented as Imami akhbar raised fantastic and thus unrealistic expectations about any future religious renewal. Thus, the Bab's identification with the Qa'im/Mahdi is purely formal. But the formality had to be taken with the utmost seriousness."

- Kitab-i-Iqan
by Christopher Buck
Published in Encyclopedia Iranica

Note the words: "...the Bab's identification with the Qa'im/Mahdi is purely formal. But the formality had to be taken withthe utmost seriousness."

Earlier today I made refereences to a site "Islam and the Baha'i Faith" and here is a section of the fulfillment of prophecies:

"One theme that is common among most religions is the promise of redemption, renewal of religion and salvation, through the coming of a Promised One, to "fill earth with justice as it has been filled with tyranny", (or in Christian terminology, to establish God's Kingdom on earth, as it is in heaven). Each group has called this Promised One by a different name: "Al- Mahdi" (the Guided One), "Al-Qa'im" (the One who Rises), "Sahibul Zaman" (Lord of the Age), Lord of Hosts. Muslims are also promised the return of Jesus (PBUH), as do Christians also await the second coming of Christ. Other religions also await their own Promised One, Whom they know by other different names.

All religions also, warn of false prophets. They warn of the "Dajjal" (the Liar, the one who misguides). They warn of the anti-christ.

So how does one distinguish between the truth and falsehood? Are we left on our own to find out? Would it be better to play it safe and reject all claimants?

What should be obvious is that, the very fact that we are warned of false prophets, should tell us that the True One is surely to come, (albeit it would not be easy to recognize Him). Otherwise, if we weren't admonished to believe in such glad tidings, or if the signs and proofs were to be so clear and obvious, the false ones wouldn't think that they had a chance to impersonate Him falsely. They wouldn't even try, because we would not be expecting anyone to come in the first place.

God says that as long as we make an effort to seek His guidance, His mercy will protect us from being misguided by others:

"And (as for) those who strive hard for Us, We will most certainly guide them in Our ways; and Allah is most surely with the doers of good."
- Qur'an 29:69

When Christ warned His disciples about false prophets, He (PBUH) also provided them with a criterion to help them distinguish between the truth and the sayings of those false prophets:

"Beware of false prophets ... Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
(Matt. 7:15-20)

Similarly, we see in the Holy Qur'an:

"Seest thou not to what God likeneth a good word? To a good tree; its root firmly fixed, and its branches reaching unto heaven: yielding its fruit in all seasons."
- Qur'an 14:24

Source:

Prophecy and Proof

There are probably some more I could post but as these have already been cited or alluded to I'll close with these.

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Actually we have been responding this question of the Bab fulfilling the prophecies of the Return of the Twelfth Imam and the Mahdi.

Thank you, here are my responses.

Originally Posted by arthra

Here's a summary of the references I've personally posted and I've expanded some of the salient areas to clarify:

Muhammad al-Mahdi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and where the Baha'i view is mentioned:

"Bahá'ís believe that the Imam Mahdi has already returned and fulfilled all the prophecies, many of them in a symbolic sense, in the person of Siyyid `Alí Muhammad-i-Shírází, known as the Báb (1819-1850). The Shaykhi movement of the early 19th century claimed to reestablish the connection to the hidden Imam, and on the night of 22 May 1844, the Báb declared that he was the "Gate" to the Promised One of all religions. In 1848 the Báb and his followers began to teach more openly, and the Báb was publicly executed in 1850."

Why in an symbolic sense. And once again, which prophecies did he fulfill even if it be in a symblic sense?

Originally Posted by arthra

You'll note above how the Shaykhi movement claimed to have reestablished connection with the Hidden Imam? The Shaykhi movement is an important starting point to understand the early Babi history...many of the students of Shaykh Ahmad and Siyyid Kazim became followers of the Bab, thus the connection.

I recognise that the Shaykh school is an important connection and I have written about it on my web site.

Originally Posted by arthra

On July 30th 2006 I posted this information:

"On the other hand, the last Imam disappeared in the year 260 of the Hegira; it is at that time that the prophetic manifestation is completed and that `The door of science is closed.' But Mufaddal questioned the Imam Sadiq as to the signs of the coming of the Mihdi and the Imam answered: `He will appear in the year sixty and his name will be glorified.' This means in the year 1260 which is precisely the year of the manifestation of the Bab.

Cited from "The Dawn Breakers" Chapter XIII

I also mentioned that his tradition is not found in any Shiite book. This seems to have been conjured up by Shoghi for there are immunerable traditions which are clear that the time of the coming of the 12th Imam is unknown except to Allah.

It is also Shoghi's assertion that the time of prophetic manidestation is closed. We do not find any tradition to that effect. The process of inspiration closed with the Prophet. Then the Imams succeeded the prophet as the defender and the interpretors of the Quran and the sunnah of the prophet. Till the Imam is alive, we will have an interpretor of the Quran and the sunnah.

Originally Posted by arthra

Also on July 30th I posted this information:

All the Imams were put to death except perhaps the last, who died as a child, in 260, and was succeeded for sixty-nine years by four successive "Gates" (abvab-i-arba'ih), who were known as his intermediaries. Then there was utter silence in Islam till the rise of the Báb in 1260 (the surih of Adoration states: "From the Heaven to the Earth He governeth all things: hereafter shall they come up to Him on a day whose length shall be a thousand of such years as ye reckon." (32:4). Hence the importance of the "Year Sixty.")

(Marzieh Gail, Six Lessons on Islam, p. 33)

My respsonse is the same as earlier. Why is Islam being counted from 260 AH and not from 13 years before the calender. Why is the 273 years being ignored?

Originally Posted by arthra

On August 7th I posted this information:

Despite the historical improbability of a Twelfth Imam, the existence of traditions attesting his occultation and eventual return created a kind of messianic determinism, in which a body of speculation represented as Imami akhbar raised fantastic and thus unrealistic expectations about any future religious renewal. Thus, the Bab's identification with the Qa'im/Mahdi is purely formal. But the formality had to be taken with the utmost seriousness."
- Kitab-i-Iqan
by Christopher Buck
Published in Encyclopedia Iranica

Note the words: "...the Bab's identification with the Qa'im/Mahdi is purely formal. But the formality had to be taken withthe utmost seriousness."

Iqan - Bahai source. I asked for Islamic source. Also, this seems to be a new dimension. Bab fulfilled the prophecies, but he did not really....confusing? But again, this does not speak of any prophecies.

Originally Posted by arthra

Earlier today I made refereences to a site "Islam and the Baha'i Faith" and here is a section of the fulfillment of prophecies:

"One theme that is common among most religions is the promise of redemption, renewal of religion and salvation, through the coming of a Promised One, to "fill earth with justice as it has been filled with tyranny", (or in Christian terminology, to establish God's Kingdom on earth, as it is in heaven). Each group has called this Promised One by a different name: "Al- Mahdi" (the Guided One), "Al-Qa'im" (the One who Rises), "Sahibul Zaman" (Lord of the Age), Lord of Hosts. Muslims are also promised the return of Jesus (PBUH), as do Christians also await the second coming of Christ. Other religions also await their own Promised One, Whom they know by other different names.

All religions also, warn of false prophets. They warn of the "Dajjal" (the Liar, the one who misguides). They warn of the anti-christ.

So how does one distinguish between the truth and falsehood? Are we left on our own to find out? Would it be better to play it safe and reject all claimants?

What should be obvious is that, the very fact that we are warned of false prophets, should tell us that the True One is surely to come, (albeit it would not be easy to recognize Him). Otherwise, if we weren't admonished to believe in such glad tidings, or if the signs and proofs were to be so clear and obvious, the false ones wouldn't think that they had a chance to impersonate Him falsely. They wouldn't even try, because we would not be expecting anyone to come in the first place.

God says that as long as we make an effort to seek His guidance, His mercy will protect us from being misguided by others:

"And (as for) those who strive hard for Us, We will most certainly guide them in Our ways; and Allah is most surely with the doers of good."
- Qur'an 29:69

When Christ warned His disciples about false prophets, He (PBUH) also provided them with a criterion to help them distinguish between the truth and the sayings of those false prophets:

"Beware of false prophets ... Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
(Matt. 7:15-20)

Similarly, we see in the Holy Qur'an:

"Seest thou not to what God likeneth a good word? To a good tree; its root firmly fixed, and its branches reaching unto heaven: yielding its fruit in all seasons."
- Qur'an 14:24

Source:

Prophecy and Proof

There are probably some more I could post but as these have already been cited or alluded to I'll close with these.

- Art

I could not agree with you more. Having said that, there are 1000's of traditions about the Mahdi in Islam. Just as you and me, our Prophet (pbuh) was inspired that there will be false claimants. So the prophet (pbuh) informed us through his traditions and his successors likewise. Why are all these traditions being ignored? We can all ask for guidance, but if we wish to turn our face away from its source, it will be tough.

Regards, as always
Imran

[Popeyesays]

"It is also Shoghi's assertion that the time of prophetic manidestation is closed. We do not find any tradition to that effect. The process of inspiration closed with the Prophet. Then the Imams succeeded the prophet as the defender and the interpretors of the Quran and the sunnah of the prophet. Till the Imam is alive, we will have an interpretor of the Quran and the sunnah."

According to Shi'ih beliefs the Imams (1-12) were the source of inspirtaion. That their collective word was from God and made the inspiration connection last for 260 years after the passing of the 12th Imam.

The Imam Jafar i Sadiq was the sixth Imam, of course. I would point out that the real rub isnot fitting the Bab into the mold of the Qaim, but in determining what "Judgement Day" means. I do not believe that people living in Judgement Day necessarily even know that it happened around them. Judgement Day is when the Manifestation of God declares Himself and the peoples of the earth respon in acceptance or rejection.


39:67 No just estimate have they made of God, such as is due to Him: On the
Day of Judgment the whole of the earth will be but His handful, and the
heavens will be rolled up in His right hand: Glory to Him! High is He above
the Partners they attribute to Him!
39:68 The Trumpet will (just) be sounded, when all that are in the heavens and
on earth will swoon, except such as it will please God (to exempt). Then will
a second one be sounded, when, behold, they will be standing and looking on!
39:69 And the Earth will shine with the Glory of its Lord: the Record (of
Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought
forward and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be
wronged (in the least).
39:70 And to every soul will be paid in full (the fruit) of its Deeds; and
(God) knoweth best all that they do. 39:71 The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowd: until, when they arrive,
there, its gates will be opened. And its keepers will say, "Did not apostles
come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord,
and warning you of the Meeting of This Day of yours?" The answer will be:
"True: but the Decree of Punishment has been proved true against the
Unbelievers!"
-- Qur'an: 39 - AZ-ZUMAR

Regards,
Scott

[arthra]

"...there are 1000's of traditions about the Mahdi in Islam. Just as you and me, our Prophet (pbuh) was inspired that there will be false claimants. So the prophet (pbuh) informed us through his traditions and his successors likewise. Why are all these traditions being ignored?"


The problem I see Imran with your approach is that the coming of the great Messengers of God do not always occur according to "traditions".

Was Jesus coming been entirely within what was expected by the Pharisees?

The Pharisees were the most knowledgeable of the traditions of Messiah and they for teh most part denied their Lord.

If men are entirely guided by their "traditions" they will remain blind because they will always be guided by those who are rich in traditions and study them all their lives, i.e., the ecclesiastics or Mullas, and who will be unresponsive to a new revelation.

In this day men are to be guided by their own search and held responsible for themselves they cannot rely anymore on the clergy to lead them.

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

"It is also Shoghi's assertion that the time of prophetic manidestation is closed. We do not find any tradition to that effect. The process of inspiration closed with the Prophet. Then the Imams succeeded the prophet as the defender and the interpretors of the Quran and the sunnah of the prophet. Till the Imam is alive, we will have an interpretor of the Quran and the sunnah."

According to Shi'ih beliefs the Imams (1-12) were the source of inspirtaion. That their collective word was from God and made the inspiration connection last for 260 years after the passing of the 12th Imam.

The Imam Jafar i Sadiq was the sixth Imam, of course. I would point out that the real rub isnot fitting the Bab into the mold of the Qaim, but in determining what "Judgement Day" means. I do not believe that people living in Judgement Day necessarily even know that it happened around them. Judgement Day is when the Manifestation of God declares Himself and the peoples of the earth respon in acceptance or rejection.


39:67 No just estimate have they made of God, such as is due to Him: On the
Day of Judgment the whole of the earth will be but His handful, and the
heavens will be rolled up in His right hand: Glory to Him! High is He above
the Partners they attribute to Him!
39:68 The Trumpet will (just) be sounded, when all that are in the heavens and
on earth will swoon, except such as it will please God (to exempt). Then will
a second one be sounded, when, behold, they will be standing and looking on!
39:69 And the Earth will shine with the Glory of its Lord: the Record (of
Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought
forward and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be
wronged (in the least).
39:70 And to every soul will be paid in full (the fruit) of its Deeds; and
(God) knoweth best all that they do. 39:71 The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowd: until, when they arrive,
there, its gates will be opened. And its keepers will say, "Did not apostles
come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord,
and warning you of the Meeting of This Day of yours?" The answer will be:
"True: but the Decree of Punishment has been proved true against the
Unbelievers!"
-- Qur'an: 39 - AZ-ZUMAR

Regards,
Scott

Scott:

Once again, these interpretations are your own and tangential to what the prophet and the Imams told us. So we will leave it at that.

I notice, that you keep on wavering to other topics whenever the question of the Bab comes up - sometimes to Iran, sometimes to my web site, the Holy Prophet, the Quran and now to the Day of Judgement. Everything but an assertion about the prophecies.

""I would point out that the real rub isnot fitting the Bab into the mold of the Qaim, but in determining what "Judgement Day" means. I do not believe that people living in Judgement Day necessarily even know that it happened around them. Judgement Day is when the Manifestation of God declares Himself and the peoples of the earth respon in acceptance or rejection.""

Where dod you get this new theory that Judgement day is when a Manifestation of God declared himself?

The Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the 12th Imam. Where and what were these prophecies? It is a straightforward question whose reply must be starightforward as well.

Regards, as always
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

"...there are 1000's of traditions about the Mahdi in Islam. Just as you and me, our Prophet (pbuh) was inspired that there will be false claimants. So the prophet (pbuh) informed us through his traditions and his successors likewise. Why are all these traditions being ignored?"


The problem I see Imran with your approach is that the coming of the great Messengers of God do not always occur according to "traditions".

Was Jesus coming been entirely within what was expected by the Pharisees?

The Pharisees were the most knowledgeable of the traditions of Messiah and they for teh most part denied their Lord.

If men are entirely guided by their "traditions" they will remain blind because they will always be guided by those who are rich in traditions and study them all their lives, i.e., the ecclesiastics or Mullas, and who will be unresponsive to a new revelation.

In this day men are to be guided by their own search and held responsible for themselves they cannot rely anymore on the clergy to lead them.

- Art

Art, the Bahais told us that the Bab fulfilled the prophecies about the 12th Imam.

In the previous quote, you brought one tradition from Dawn Breakers from Imam Sadiq (as) liberally narrated by Shoghi which I clarified was absent in any book. And I also requested that you inform me or Shoghi informs us where he read this tradition.

Now you tell me that traditions come in the way of accepting the 12th Imam?
Is'nt there some sort of contradiction here?

Nonetheless, which prophecies of the 12th Imam did the Bab fulfill. Can you just outline them please?

Regards, as always
Imran