Why does Baha'i accept Shia and not Sunni? - Page 3

Popeyesays · 12-04-2006, 04:12 AM

Imran,

Why try to manipulate people into supplying you with what you think you want to hear? Just deal with the topic. Post your questions, you compaints, etc. straight forwardly.

If you think Arthra or I are being difficult, I would remind you you still have not answered my question about how you feel about the persecution of Baha`i's in Iran, now have you?

Why should we be more cooperative than you are willing to be.

Regards,
Scott

imranshaykh · 12-04-2006, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Imran,

Why try to manipulate people into supplying you with what you think you want to hear? Just deal with the topic. Post your questions, you compaints, etc. straight forwardly.

If you think Arthra or I are being difficult, I would remind you you still have not answered my question about how you feel about the persecution of Baha`i's in Iran, now have you?

Why should we be more cooperative than you are willing to be.

Regards,
Scott

You asked for my view earlier. I gave it. But how is this question about Iran (a political issue) related to the prophecies of the Bab?

You are asking me to post my question as if I have been hiding it for all this time! And who am I to manipulate what I want to hear? I have not given any views at this post. I only ask my question and sit like a humble student waiting to hear from his teachers.

My question is very clear -

The Bahais claim the Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the 12th Imam. I ask which prophecies. Please let me know from Islamic sources.

I hope the question is clear. I will be difficult for me to spell it further.

If you want to discuss about Iran, I may not be so keen. I have mentioned it earlier - it is political issue and I have questions for both Iran and the Bahais. So I will refrain from making my comments. Besides, Allah will not question me for the actions of the Iranis. But He will definitely do so if I have not followed the correct 12th Imam. That is why I keep on asking you which prophecies of the 12th Imam, as claimed by the Bahais, did the Bab fulfill?

Regards, as always.
Imran

Popeyesays · 12-04-2006, 02:33 PM

Imran,

Did you buy up the world supply of Macassar Oil?

Regards,
Scott

BruceDLimber · 12-04-2006, 02:50 PM

Scott, Imran already stated he doesn't object to the persecution of the Baha'is in Iran (nor, apparently, to their being denied exit from Iran unless they first deny their faith), as I pointed out in an earlier reply to him where I called him on this! :-(

Regards,
Bruce

IMSassafras · 12-04-2006, 03:55 PM

Hello Everyone,

Call me crazy, but isn't the information that Imran is looking for in the book The Dalá'il-i-Sab'ih (The Seven Proofs) by the Bab? If so, then the only problem is it hasn't been translated completely.

Imran, you are welcome to check this out. Hopefully you can read Arabic.
Arabic and Persian Babi Texts

I should add, if you plan to come back here and discuss the content, remember friend, only a little of the Book has been translated to English, that I can find. Also, keep in mind, there are other works from both the Bab and Baha'u'llah which have not been translated yet which might answer your current questions and future ones.... The key is they haven't been translated yet.

English translations:
There is are 4 excerpts from The Dalá'il-i-Sab'ih here:
Selections from the Writings of the Báb 4 EXCERPTS FROM DALÁ'IL-I-SAB`IH (The Seven Proofs)

A Wiki Quote here:
BÃ¡b - Wikiquote

Want more? Put Dalá'il-i-Sab'ih in Google and hit search.

warmly,
Sassafras

Popeyesays · 12-04-2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Scott, Imran already stated he doesn't object to the persecution of the Baha'is in Iran (nor, apparently, to their being denied exit from Iran unless they first deny their faith), as I pointed out in an earlier reply to him where I called him on this! :-(

Regards,
Bruce

Actually what he said was the "Iranians tell them to go." I did not consider that to be what Imran believes. So he continues to evade the question while insisting on answers to his own.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays · 12-04-2006, 05:41 PM

Mick!

Thanks for pointing out that provisional translation. I quote one section of it here:
"
LET Me set forth some rational arguments for thee. If someone desireth to embrace the Faith of Islám today, would the testimony of God prove conclusive for him? If thou dost contend that it would not, then how is it that God will chastise him after death, and that, while he lives, the verdict of `non-believer' is passed upon him? If thou affirmest that the testimony is conclusive, how wouldst thou prove this? If thy assertion is based on hearsay, then mere words are unacceptable as a binding testimony; but if thou deemest the Qur'án as the testimony, this would be a weighty and evident proof.
Now consider the Revelation of the Bayán. If the followers of the Qur'án had applied to themselves proofs similar to those which they advance for the non-believers in Islám, not a single soul would have remained deprived of the Truth, and on the Day of Resurrection everyone would have attained salvation.
Should a Christian contend, `How can I deem the Qur'án a testimony while I am unable to understand it?' such a contention would not be acceptable. Likewise the people of the Qur'án disdainfully observe, `We are unable to comprehend the eloquence of the verses in the Bayán, how can we regard it as a testimony?' Whoever uttereth such words, say unto him, `O thou untutored one! By what proof hast thou embraced the Religion of Islám? Is it the Prophet on whom thou hast never set eyes? Is it the miracles which thou hast never witnessed? If thou hast accepted Islám unwittingly, wherefore hast thou done so? But if thou hast embraced the Faith by recognizing the Qur'án as the testimony, because thou hast heard the learned and the faithful express their powerlessness before it, or if thou hast, upon hearing the divine verses and by virtue of thy spontaneous love for the True Word of God, responded in a spirit of utter humility and lowliness--a spirit which is one of the mightiest signs of true love and understanding--then such proofs have been and will ever be regarded as sound.' "

Regards,

Scott

Mick · 12-04-2006, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Mick!

Thanks for pointing out that provisional translation. I quote one section of it here:
Regards,

Scott

Thank you, Scott, but actually it was Sassafras that posted the reference to the translations.

Mick

Popeyesays · 12-04-2006, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick

Thank you, Scott, but actually it was Sassafras that posted the reference to the translations.

Mick

Thanks also to Sassafras. I have known of the Resource Library for years, but did not think of searching there for that particular document.

One can also find provisional translations of Ode to the Dove, The Tablet of All Foods (which was the first prophetic writing of Baha`u'llah immediately after His release from the prison of Siyah Chal. Many wonderful things.

One should be aware that the translations are PROVISIONAL, not authorized or authoritative.

Regards,
Scott

imranshaykh · 12-05-2006, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMSassafras

Hello Everyone,

Call me crazy, but isn't the information that Imran is looking for in the book The Dalá'il-i-Sab'ih (The Seven Proofs) by the Bab? If so, then the only problem is it hasn't been translated completely.

Imran, you are welcome to check this out. Hopefully you can read Arabic.
Arabic and Persian Babi Texts

I should add, if you plan to come back here and discuss the content, remember friend, only a little of the Book has been translated to English, that I can find. Also, keep in mind, there are other works from both the Bab and Baha'u'llah which have not been translated yet which might answer your current questions and future ones.... The key is they haven't been translated yet.

English translations:
There is are 4 excerpts from The Dalá'il-i-Sab'ih here:
Selections from the Writings of the Báb 4 EXCERPTS FROM DALÁ'IL-I-SAB`IH (The Seven Proofs)

A Wiki Quote here:
BÃ¡b - Wikiquote

Want more? Put Dalá'il-i-Sab'ih in Google and hit search.

warmly,
Sassafras

Thanks. If you read my web site, especially the section of the Bab, you will see that I am fairly proficient in Arabic and Persian. so no issues there. I have the entire Dalaelus Sabah. If you like I can send it to you. If you like, I can give another location where the book is available in its entirety. My friend who wrote the article has used the relevant portions of Dalaelus Sabah on the web site.

While questioning which prophecies of the Mahdi which the Bab fulfilled, I had asked, at the outset, about the books of the Bab which are accepted by the Bahais. I was informed that the Bahais consider the books as forgeries and only those which are authorised by the Bahais can be considered as correct. I have no problem with that. I only wanted to know then that which books of the Bab are not forgeries so that we can focus on reading those.

Incidentally, if you read even these books of the Bab (forgeries or otherwise) , you may see that the Bab denies that he was the Mahdi and calls out to someone else by name and title as the Mahdi. The name and the multiple titles used by the Bab are exactly as per Shiite beliefs. he calls the Mahdi as Baqiyatullah, Sahabaz Zaman etc. In one of his books he also says that he saw a person in Mecca near the Kaaba and thought that he was the Mahdi. He tried to go towards the person but could not. When one reads these sentences, it creates a doubt which needs to be clarified.

But the Bahais say that they are forgeries and we will leave it at that. I therefore changed the question and presented it from an Islamic viewpoint. Which prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill?

Just one point: The SWB was released in 1976. Four quotations were brought from Salaelus Sabah from that. Obviosuly some person may have read the entire book then and then chosen those 4 quotations. My point is that not only has the entire book not been released since then, but now the book is branded as a forgery.

Respectfully yours, as always
Imran

imranshaykh · 12-05-2006, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Imran,

Did you buy up the world supply of Macassar Oil?

Regards,
Scott

I dont even know what Macassar Oil is...am going to look it up on google...right now...!!

Respectfully yours, as always
Imran

Popeyesays · 12-05-2006, 07:20 AM

It was a hair oil made from a plant native to Madagascar. It was so popular all over the world that the Victorianj English developed a lace doily for furniture called an 'antiMacassar'. THe drawback was that it was very dark and left black oily stains on everything.

It was used heavily in the Middle East as well, in fact Arab traders brought it to the rest of the world. Some of those who attack the Baha`i Faith accuse Baha`u'llah of dying His hair black so He would look younger. The fact is that He used it as a hair dressing like 90% of the males around the world.

Regards,
Scott