why does god punish flawed creatures that he made forever

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

That's an interesting point Saltmeister and I think it illustrates why just quoting the doctrine at people will not convert them. They have to have some sort of experience to take them across the belief/unbelief line.

For me, the question has been answered, now I understand the answer to the question from a Christian perspective. I don't believe it, but I get it. If we can't understand belief (or disbelief) without believing it ourselves then there is no point to a forum like this.

Being an "insider" from childhood, I've seen approaches to Christianity from the "childish" through the "adolescent/teenager" to the adult level.

I think I've gradually grown out of the idea of thinking everyone has the same need that I have, or that I have some "philosophy" or "creed" that they don't have that will somehow make them a "whole person" -- telling people they have needs they don't have. Everyone must discover their own needs and find ways to address them. I became a little more convinced of this when I had personal life experiences where I did indeed, sense that I had particular needs, and that Christianity had a kind of relevance that didn't have much to do with the "classical" or "conventional" way of seeing it. As a result, I don't see Christianity quite the same way as I was taught.

Those experiences took me in a different direction to common doctrine and tradition. It actually felt like a kind of liberation from doctrine and tradition, as if somehow I didn't need doctrines and traditions anymore. I could use my personal experiences as substitute. What I see now is a gradual replacement of doctrine with experiences -- a journey where doctrine (belief in what I see as "right," or philosophy and creeds) is replaced by faith (belief in what I see as "true").

My experiences would serve almost exactly the same function as the doctrines I was taught, but in a more natural way. It's a bit like replacing artificial, synthetic limbs with natural ones. You start from living, breathing and thinking like a robot, a drone, to a fully human person.

Ok, you might not want to do that to yourself, but I find it quite thrilling to have gone through a process/experience where I was "mentally confined" to being "more liberated and natural." I must say I feel more like . . . a real person . . . than I did one or two years ago.

If you want to become a Christian . . . beware -- you will be turned into a "mentally confined robot" before you know it. You lose your innocence and spontaneity -- until you realise why you lost it -- and find a way to regain it -- and recover -- like I did. If you become a Christian, but are not turned into a "mentally confined robot," it means you already had a lot of innocence and spontaneity to begin with. That would say a lot about you as a person. It means you have a strong personality. (or maybe it means you're a witch.)

But be warned . . . it's a dangerous experiment that has destroyed many people. Only try it if you are bold and daring. Mwhahahahahahaha.

Originally Posted by Impqueen

(On a side note - I felt that the moderating on this thread was heavy handed. It almost made me abandon the forum.)

(I think Dave was largely misunderstood. I think at the time there wasn't much of a balancing influence in the thread, not enough variety of ideas being tossed around. It was mostly just him and Pico. The discussion at the time wasn't going too well. Things might be different now.)

[Dondi]

Those experiences took me in a different direction to common doctrine and tradition. It actually felt like a kind of liberation from doctrine and tradition, as if somehow I didn't need doctrines and traditions anymore. I could use my personal experiences as substitute. What I see now is a gradual replacement of doctrine with experiences -- a journey where doctrine (belief in what I see as "right," or philosophy and creeds) is replaced by faith (belief in what I see as "true").

The secret to following doctrine is not to become "mentally confined robots", but rather to exercise our life in the manner of the alternative. It is sorta like compelling someone who never rode a rollercoaster to try it:

"Come'on, let's go on it"
"No, I'm too scared"
"Aww now, you don't have anything to worry about. It's fun."
"NO, I don't want to go on it, I said!"
"But you don't know what you're missing!"
"You sure it's safe?"
"Yeah"
"Well, ok. I'll try it once"

Later:

"Wow! That was great!! Let's do it again!"

You take doctrine as a guide. The reason that there are Ten Commandments and not Ten Suggestions is that most people wouldn't be inclined to follow suggestions. The weight of a suggestion carries little. But once you discover that "Hey, I get it now", it no longer becomes just a commandment, but part of your life.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Dondi

The secret to following doctrine is not to become "mentally confined robots", but rather to exercise our life in the manner of the alternative. It is sorta like compelling someone who never rode a rollercoaster to try it:

"Come'on, let's go on it"
"No, I'm too scared"
"Aww now, you don't have anything to worry about. It's fun."
"NO, I don't want to go on it, I said!"
"But you don't know what you're missing!"
"You sure it's safe?"
"Yeah"
"Well, ok. I'll try it once"

Later:

"Wow! That was great!! Let's do it again!"

Two hours later.....

Freak accident on roller coaster.... 5 dead 12 wounded....

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Two hours later.....

Freak accident on roller coaster.... 5 dead 12 wounded....

Never said there wasn't any risk. But statistically speaking, the ride is relatively safe.

ETA: Also, I would think that after two hours on the rollercoaster, the thrill would diminish somewhat, wouldn't you? Time to try a different ride.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

The disturbingly nonsensical logic of open mind!?!?!?!??????

I am flabbergasted, astounded, amazed and ultimately saddened to ever read such a line. You can delegate your rational to dogma. I never will and I'll take my chances before the almighty clear of conscience and responsible in myself for my every word and action. Without the get-out clause of "but I believed in you".
Truly that is just the most breathtaking complacency and dereliction of personal responsibility. You really think God would respect that? No God I could respect would.

Tao

Let me ask.. is it the concept of grace you have issue with? Or that we are justified by our faith? You know.. that means just as if we have never sinned?

When someone grasps that entire concept... they want to please God and even more so Christ in us is what changes us... not anything that WE do. We can do nothing of ourselves its Christ IN us that all is made new.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Never said there wasn't any risk. But statistically speaking, the ride is relatively safe.

ETA: Also, I would think that after two hours on the rollercoaster, the thrill would diminish somewhat, wouldn't you? Time to try a different ride.

Try telling those seventeen people the ride was -relatively- safe.... Blood, blood Dondi... ON YOUR HANDS!

-edit-

the two hours later... was after they had a final count of bodies.... A mess takes sometime to clear up and see the real picture.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Let me ask.. is it the concept of grace you have issue with? Or that we are justified by our faith? You know.. that means just as if we have never sinned?

When someone grasps that entire concept... they want to please God and even more so Christ in us is what changes us... not anything that WE do. We can do nothing of ourselves its Christ IN us that all is made new.

What I have issue with is when someone uses their "faith" to excuse themselves for responsibility for their actions here on Earth. The idea that "belief and acceptance of God/Jesus" is an antidote to judgement. It was a response to a specific quote. I think I made that pretty clear in my two previous posts.

Tao

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

What I have issue with is when someone uses their "faith" to excuse themselves for responsibility for their actions here on Earth. The idea that "belief and acceptance of God/Jesus" is an antidote to judgement. It was a response to a specific quote. I think I made that pretty clear in my two previous posts.

Tao

Ohh... so you have issues with forgiveness. Gotcha. I will be very careful not to ever make a mistep with you. Because I fall all the time and I make mistakes and I hurt people that I am supposed to love. Its human nature to err.

[17th Angel]

Hey Faithful servant... I forgive you!

[Tariki]

More generally, we should, I believe, interpret all of the biblical ideas associated with divine judgement as redemptive ideas.

(Thomas Talbott, "The Inescapable Love of God")

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Ohh... so you have issues with forgiveness. Gotcha. I will be very careful not to ever make a mistep with you. Because I fall all the time and I make mistakes and I hurt people that I am supposed to love. Its human nature to err.

Rflmao. If you cannot read what I said and understand what I meant then please do not put words in my mouth. Some folk, all folk at some point, will only see what they want to see. Its human nature. And I forgive you I will not try to gain moderator attention to have you silenced.

Tao

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Hey Faithful servant... I forgive you!

You're awesome!

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Rflmao. If you cannot read what I said and understand what I meant then please do not put words in my mouth. Some folk, all folk at some point, will only see what they want to see. Its human nature. And I forgive you I will not try to gain moderator attention to have you silenced.

Tao

You are right.. Im sorry I hate it when people do that to me. Put words in my mouth.. but seriously thats what it sounds like.. You have issues that people use their faith to bypass judgement for doing wrong things..

It only works on the spiritual level when you repent to God.. To a believer thats the ultimate to be forgiven by the ultimate of Judges.

That does not mean you are not held accountable on the physical...We still have to pay for crimes..but there is a peace to knowing that you are truly forgiven by your maker.

[Tao_Equus]

John 3:18-21
18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

This is the passage to which I was originally commenting and the highlighted text specifically. This states that a murderer who repents and 'believes' is a better man and will recieve a place in heaven. And a man that never believes, never commits a crime or hurts anybody and devotes his life to helping others is already judged and damned. As a non-believer do you not think I should find such logic offensive? Or crazy? I hope you now get where I am coming from.

Tao

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

The disturbingly nonsensical logic of open mind!?!?!?!??????

I am flabbergasted, astounded, amazed and ultimately saddened to ever read such a line. You can delegate your rational to dogma. I never will and I'll take my chances before the almighty clear of conscience and responsible in myself for my every word and action. Without the get-out clause of "but I believed in you".
Truly that is just the most breathtaking complacency and dereliction of personal responsibility. You really think God would respect that? No God I could respect would.

Tao

actually you didnt write down what i said in its entirety so it changes its meaning, perhaps you are not understanding where i am coming from. the argument of having an open mind means to some that they are evil, to me is a silly argument, and a grand statement that only seems to be said to feed ones contruals. to be closed minded, to even have a hardened heart, makes it very difficult to let god in--that gives way to evil more than anything. but to be open minded, to be humble in spirit gives in to god more--through which the goodness of god can work through. i have no idea about the reasoning behind all your other statements, but directed towards me they are untrue and are hard to make sense of.