why does god punish flawed creatures that he made forever

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

actually you didnt write down what i said in its entirety so it changes its meaning, perhaps you are not understanding where i am coming from. the argument of having an open mind means to some that they are evil, to me is a silly argument, and a grand statement that only seems to be said to feed ones contruals. to be closed minded, to even have a hardened heart, makes it very difficult to let god in--that gives way to evil more than anything. be to be open minded, to be humble in spirit gives in to god more--through which the goodness of god can work through. i have no idea about the reasoning behind all your other statements, but directed towards me they are untrue and are hard to make sense of.

My apologies I did indeed misunderstand your statement. My initial response was to something quoted on a post by Pico, not you. I am sorry for misunderstanding your response to that post. And very relieved to know you do not think being open-minded evil

Tao

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I agree that's true in theory, but that's not what Christians do in practice. We all want to know that somehow we're in the safe zone, but if we defined our religion too vaguely or if it was too abstract, it might include people who do not uphold he same concepts as us, do not think as we do, or do not have our history or "roots." There would otherwise be no meaningful difference between us and them.

So we define a set of rules to identify ourselves as different to those who do not have our history, do not have our "roots," do not value, love or adore what we value, love or adore. We give ourselves reasons to value the concepts that we hold dear, reasons that ultimately mean that we have and possess something that others do not possess.

We behave as if we owned it and had it.

I've come across a multitude of Christian web sites and literature where it seems like the main point is to show how the "Christian" as defined by the web site or literature possesses something that everyone else lacks. It makes it sound like the reason why you have to be Christian is because Christians have something that everyone else is missing.

I personally don't believe that is why people should belong to a "church." It's the other way round!!! A person is Christian because he is "lacking." He goes to church for fulfillment of his personal needs. Everyone else, those outside the church have figured it out. Christians are not the ones who "have it." No, they are the ones who "don't have it and need it." The real "Christian" is a person who is missing something that everybody else has already got. We're people with special needs, not providers of needs.

Church is a Sanctuary, a refuge, a safe haven, a place for reflection, reformation and regeneration when life goes sour. We go to churches because we were in hell and we needed a Sanctuary.

"...that's true in theory, but that's not what Christians do in practice. "

i understand what you are saying. of course, we are all human and thats the part that fails of making theory into reality, but we must try and fail and learn and try again, and i agree basically with everything else that was said.

[Silent Dave]

Since the moderator has not permitted me to continue posting in this forum, and since I have better things to do than keep checking back here for permission -- I'm in the process of moving to another city -- I'll be saying goodbye and ceasing my activities in this forum. Anyone who wishes to continue a dialogue with me on the subject of Chrisitanity may email me at silentdave47@gmail.com

Take care, all.

[Faithfulservant]

yes I do see it Tao I dont want to seem to be generalizing you but most unbelievers have this very same problem with Christianity. What the bible says is that we arent saved by our works in this world... there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation or our spot in heaven.. Jesus died for ALL sins for ALL time so that we can be measured with HIS righteousness and HIS goodness. We are saved by our faith or our belief in Him. We are judged innocent.

The bible says that someone who chooses not to believe (everyone is given the opportunity) is judged by the same laws given on our hearts.. our moral conscience.. and the written law which is 10 commandments.

Jesus's sacrifice is a gift because we cannot ever achieve that goodness apart from Him. We are all liars thieves murderers adulterers blasphemers and sabbath breakers at heart... even us Christians.

The only thing that seperates a believer from a non-believer is faith in the only begotten Son of God.

Thats it.

[Tao_Equus]

Faithfulservant,

There would be little point in getting into circular responses to that. You know that I do not, that I cannot, share such a view. I am of the belief that the majority of the Bible is written as a theo-political device and small bits of it are genuine efforts to understand creation. At the outset it attempts to subvert free-thinking in the parable of Eve eating fruit from the tree of knowledge. From there on in it acts as though it were a manual for someone in advertising. I.E. Tear down your subjects self worth, assure them lasting unhappiness - then when they are down show them how to fix themselves by purchasing the product. In this case salvation. To me it is as far removed from being a guide to God's will as a telephone directory. Infact a telephone directory may be more useful in that it reminds us there are a lot of people out their and each has their own ideas.
There is no point in me trying to discuss these things here tho so I am going to re-double my efforts to stay off the 'dedicated' threads.

Regards

Tao

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Faithfulservant,

There would be little point in getting into circular responses to that. You know that I do not, that I cannot, share such a view. I am of the belief that the majority of the Bible is written as a theo-political device and small bits of it are genuine efforts to understand creation. At the outset it attempts to subvert free-thinking in the parable of Eve eating fruit from the tree of knowledge. From there on in it acts as though it were a manual for someone in advertising. I.E. Tear down your subjects self worth, assure them lasting unhappiness - then when they are down show them how to fix themselves by purchasing the product. In this case salvation. To me it is as far removed from being a guide to God's will as a telephone directory. Infact a telephone directory may be more useful in that it reminds us there are a lot of people out their and each has their own ideas.
There is no point in me trying to discuss these things here tho so I am going to re-double my efforts to stay off the 'dedicated' threads.

Regards

Tao

Just because you dont believe in something doesnt mean it doesnt exist.. You are a reasonable intelligent person so you should understand that. I also dont believe you "cannot" share such a view because Ive seen some pretty hard people come to Christ. Nothing is impossible and the bible says that the Word will not return to Him void. So we'll see

And it comes to my mind that everytime a non-believer hears the gospel of truth and rejects it they are creating a callous which gets thicker and thicker and thicker... We refer to that as hardening ones heart. Dont be so hard Tao!

God loves you!

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

John 3:18-21
18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

This is the passage to which I was originally commenting and the highlighted text specifically. This states that a murderer who repents and 'believes' is a better man and will recieve a place in heaven. And a man that never believes, never commits a crime or hurts anybody and devotes his life to helping others is already judged and damned. As a non-believer do you not think I should find such logic offensive? Or crazy? I hope you now get where I am coming from.

Tao

Actually, I take that verse to mean that those who do not believe in Him (Jesus = Word of God), will be judged by the word He has spoken. I recall Jesus's words later saying:

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." - John 12:47-50

I believe this is the context in which we ought to regard statements in the effect of "believe in him", etc. For instance:

"For God so love the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him [that is His word] should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16 [brackets mine]

That puts a new light on that verse doesn't it?

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Actually, I take that verse to mean that those who do not believe in Him (Jesus = Word of God), will be judged by the word He has spoken. I recall Jesus's words later saying:

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." - John 12:47-50

I believe this is the context in which we ought to regard statements in the effect of "believe in him", etc. For instance:

"For God so love the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him [that is His word] should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16 [brackets mine]

That puts a new light on that verse doesn't it?

Nice

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

You're awesome!

! So are you guys!

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Dondi

The secret to following doctrine is not to become "mentally confined robots", but rather to exercise our life in the manner of the alternative. It is sorta like compelling someone who never rode a rollercoaster to try it:

...............

You take doctrine as a guide. The reason that there are Ten Commandments and not Ten Suggestions is that most people wouldn't be inclined to follow suggestions. The weight of a suggestion carries little. But once you discover that "Hey, I get it now", it no longer becomes just a commandment, but part of your life.

True indeed!!! Sometimes we just forget that it's just a guide. We become confined in our thinking. Another mistake is to think just because it means so much to us that it has to mean the same thing to other people. If they disagree, we assume they're "denying the truth."

Doctrine assumes everyone has the same needs, or that everyone will reach the same conclusions if given the time -- that over time they will see things our way. But hey -- we all come from different walks of life, so we can't presume people have to think the same way as us. Also, our thinking changes over time as we discover that certain things are more important than others.

As we get older, accumulate life experiences and/or see more of the world, we often find our earlier attitudes or beliefs to be either wrong or misguided. We find new ways of seeing things. That's why sometimes doing as we're told isn't necessarily a good idea. We should instead focus more on affirmative experiences that either reinforce existing beliefs/convictions or lead to new ways of seeing things.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Just because you dont believe in something doesnt mean it doesnt exist.. You are a reasonable intelligent person so you should understand that. I also dont believe you "cannot" share such a view because Ive seen some pretty hard people come to Christ. Nothing is impossible and the bible says that the Word will not return to Him void. So we'll see

And it comes to my mind that everytime a non-believer hears the gospel of truth and rejects it they are creating a callous which gets thicker and thicker and thicker... We refer to that as hardening ones heart. Dont be so hard Tao!

God loves you!

Excellent points.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

True indeed!!! Sometimes we just forget that it's just a guide. We become confined in our thinking. Another mistake is to think just because it means so much to us that it has to mean the same thing to other people. If they disagree, we assume they're "denying the truth."

Doctrine assumes everyone has the same needs, or that everyone will reach the same conclusions if given the time -- that over time they will see things our way. But hey -- we all come from different walks of life, so we can't presume people have to think the same way as us. Also, our thinking changes over time as we discover that certain things are more important than others.

As we get older, accumulate life experiences and/or see more of the world, we often find our earlier attitudes or beliefs to be either wrong or misguided. We find new ways of seeing things. That's why sometimes doing as we're told isn't necessarily a good idea. We should instead focus more on affirmative experiences that either reinforce existing beliefs/convictions or lead to new ways of seeing things.

Doctrine is a guide, agreed. The Bible is not. It is a manual for operating humans correctly. Just like today's "manuals" it also warns about operating the human in the wrong way, and what can happen when done so. The "manual" also contains within the pages, instructions, guidance, tips, and troubleshooting procedures.

And the "manual" states that if the product (human) isn't operated (ing) as perscribed by the "manufacturerl", the warranty can be made void...

Something to think about next time one unwraps a "new" product made by the "manufacturer"...

v/r

Q