why does god punish flawed creatures that he made forever

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

I think Sm is getting at the point - If God made man, he made us with all our flaws, so why then punish us for the flaws he made? Which is something I've wondered too...

Your premise is wrong. God did not make our flaws. God can't do or make anything short of perfection.

The flaws are there because we've rejected God and turned away from him. Our flaws are a result of sin, along with everything wrong with the world. God didn't make them.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by shadowman

meaning what?

what do you mean by held responsible...?

what are the faults?

We are all accountabel to God for our actions. He gave us a moral consicence so we know what's right and wrong, and we choose to do wrong instead of right (called sinning). It was our choice, we are responsible for that choice and the consequences that come with it.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by shadowman

yeah, why should we?

who benefits from eternally punishing us.

does god get benefit out of it?

do we?

whats the point of that.

Satan benefits from us being eternaly punished. He hates God, but he can't do anything to God.

But he can hurt us. And he knows that God loves us, so his way of hurthing God is through us. So he tries as hard as he can to bring as many people down as possible.

God does not benefit, infact it greatly hurts him every time even one of his image bearrers is lost. But because of his just nature he has to judge sin, and the penalty of sin is death (physical and spiritual), just as he said in the Genesis Chap. 3

We obvously don't benefit from it but it is our just reward, and it's what we deserve.

The point is that God loves us enough that he respects human free will and choice that if we choose not to be with him he will honor that choice, and that God is the just judge of the world.

[Impqueen]

Originally Posted by Pico

Your premise is wrong. God did not make our flaws. God can't do or make anything short of perfection.

The flaws are there because we've rejected God and turned away from him. Our flaws are a result of sin, along with everything wrong with the world. God didn't make them.

Surely though as we are capable of sinning we are flawed? Didn't he create us with a sex drive? If so then to punish us for listening to it seems unfair, hypocritical even. Or is sex a gift of the devil rather than god?

he respects human free will and choice that if we choose not to be with him he will honor that choice, and that God is the just judge of the world

Though again, as our natural drives (sex and selfish need for survival to name two) seem to lead us towards sin, and one needs to defy these urges in order to keep from sinning I'd question whether those who sin are turning away or whether we actively have to turn towards him in order to be saved. Setting us on a road that leads to a cliff and then saying, 'if you don't turn off the road, it's your choice' seems a little unfair.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

Surely though as we are capable of sinning we are flawed? Didn't he create us with a sex drive? If so then to punish us for listening to it seems unfair, hypocritical even. Or is sex a gift of the devil rather than god?

Sex is something God made and said it was very good. After he created Adam and Eve he commanded them to "be plentiful and procreate." Which meant: "have sex. A lot." It's just that sin distorts everything. God meant it for a man to only have sex with and lust after his own wife. But thanks to sin, it doesn't happen that way.

Originally Posted by Impqueen

Though again, as our natural drives (sex and selfish need for survival to name two) seem to lead us towards sin, and one needs to defy these urges in order to keep from sinning I'd question whether those who sin are turning away or whether we actively have to turn towards him in order to be saved. Setting us on a road that leads to a cliff and then saying, 'if you don't turn off the road, it's your choice' seems a little unfair.

First of all, God didn't "set us on a road taht leads to a cliff," we sinned against God and turned off the road he put us on and headed toward the cliff. And yes, we have to actively turn to God to be saved, it doesn't just happen automaticaly.

Second of all, selfishness is not something God gave us. Selfishness came due to sin. Selflessness is a Godly characteristic. Look at Jesus, he did not in any way use his powers for his own benefit, but to help others.

Once you are saved, God gives you a new heart that is pure and perfect, which is where the Holy Spirit dwells. But our bodies are still full of sin and succeptabel to temtation, which is why we still sin. God looks at people's hearts and for believers he sees perfection, which is made possible through Christ. But God himself became a man and was tempted in every way we are, so he understands why we fail. He doesn't condem us for it, he just tells us that we can do better and promises to help us if we keep asking for his help. But we still need to confess our sins to God becasue that's how we get it off our chest.

God needs us to come to him and be honest with him. That's how the relationship forms. God wants a relationship with everyone, but relationships are built on intimacy. Intimacy is knowing and being known. We pray to God and tell him about our selves (our faults, our feelings, our emotions, etc.), and we read his Word to learn about him.

[shadowman]

Originally Posted by Pico

Your premise is wrong. God did not make our flaws. God can't do or make anything short of perfection.

The flaws are there because we've rejected God and turned away from him. Our flaws are a result of sin, along with everything wrong with the world. God didn't make them.

perfection wouldnt go against god. especially if we are defining god as perfection.

and didnt god make this world, satan and all the other bull crap that goes on?

[shadowman]

Originally Posted by Pico

We are all accountabel to God for our actions. He gave us a moral consicence so we know what's right and wrong, and we choose to do wrong instead of right (called sinning). It was our choice, we are responsible for that choice and the consequences that come with it.

so are there consequences for not sinning?

one sin makes a man a sinner. but what does one act of love do? make one a saint?

[shadowman]

Originally Posted by Pico

Satan benefits from us being eternaly punished. He hates God, but he can't do anything to God.

But he can hurt us. And he knows that God loves us, so his way of hurthing God is through us. So he tries as hard as he can to bring as many people down as possible.

God does not benefit, infact it greatly hurts him every time even one of his image bearrers is lost. But because of his just nature he has to judge sin, and the penalty of sin is death (physical and spiritual), just as he said in the Genesis Chap. 3

We obvously don't benefit from it but it is our just reward, and it's what we deserve.

The point is that God loves us enough that he respects human free will and choice that if we choose not to be with him he will honor that choice, and that God is the just judge of the world.

so he loves giving us free will more than he loves ensuring that none of us go to hell?

god made satan, if satan has the power to put people in hell. why does god let satan exist?

[shadowman]

what makes you think that any human has done anything to warrant eternal torture?

how bad do you think humans really are?

[shadowman]

how is it justice to punish people forever?

[Pico]

Originally Posted by shadowman

perfection wouldnt go against god. especially if we are defining god as perfection.

and didnt god make this world, satan and all the other bull crap that goes on?

Yes, God made this world, but he made it perfect. He gave man dominion over it. But when man sinned (which to an infinitely holy God, makes man infinitely in the wrong), the whole of creation was tainted by sin. That's why there's "bull crap" in this world.

[shadowman]

so why did man have the capacity to sin if he was made perfect by god. why did god create beings that could sin?

[Pico]

Originally Posted by shadowman

so are there consequences for not sinning?

one sin makes a man a sinner. but what does one act of love do? make one a saint?

The consequence for not sinning is that you don't die, and you live a perfect life in God's eyes (since he created life, he knows what a perfect life is, and he has defined it in his word). Unortunately, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But only Jesus, the one who live a perfect life without sin, was the perfect sacrifice for our sins.

Humans were made to love. Loving does not more than make us human and God's image bearers. But the simple act is that just one sin makes us a sinner, which is high treason against the Holy Almighty Creator God.

God wights all sin equally. He is so infinitely perfect that even 1 sin is infinitely wrong.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by shadowman

so why did man have the capacity to sin if he was made perfect by god. why did god create beings that could sin?

Because, he created us to love, but real love is a choice. God wants us to willingly choose to love him, not to be forced to. Of course if there was no option otherwise there would be no choice. Unfortunately, man chose the other choice and now we reap the consequences we deserve. We are living in a world without God, because when Adam disobeyed him, he basically said, "I want to do things my own way, and not your way." And this world we live in sucks.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by shadowman

so he loves giving us free will more than he loves ensuring that none of us go to hell?

god made satan, if satan has the power to put people in hell. why does god let satan exist?

Without free will we could not love, because love is a choice. And God wants us to choose him.

God made satan to test mankind's love for him. Satan tempts us, and God wants to see if we'll say "This seems like it'll be neat, but God said it's wrong, so i'm not going to do it, because I love God and don't want to hurt him."