why does god punish flawed creatures that he made forever

[Pico]

Originally Posted by shadowman

what makes you think that any human has done anything to warrant eternal torture?

how bad do you think humans really are?

Well, God exists out of time. The universe he made consists of space and time. So the only way for us to understand the concept of "without time passing" would be the word eternity.

And God plainly warned Adam that if he disobeyed God, he would surely die (spiritually and physically). And as I've stated before. God is so Holy he can not look upon sin, and he is so just that sin must be judged (and that judgement is death, as God said.) God is the God of life, so death would being completely cut off from life, which is what hell is: completely cut off from all life which only comes from God.

God has said in his word that: the hart of man is decietful and desperately wicked. God can not lie.

[shadowman]

brains, I need braaains for my maaaassster

[shadowman]

so how is justice dishing out eternal punishment?

isnt that kind of a horrible thing to do?

[Silent Dave]

How can something even slightly imperfect come from an infinitely perfect being?

[Pico]

Originally Posted by shadowman

so how is justice dishing out eternal punishment?

isnt that kind of a horrible thing to do?

Well if someone doesn't want to be with God forever, then there's only 1 other option. And that option is sent to a place devoid of God, the source of all good in the world, which is where the torment comes from.

[Silent Dave]

Originally Posted by Pico

Well if someone doesn't want to be with God forever, then there's only 1 other option. And that option is sent to a place devoid of God, the source of all good in the world, which is where the torment comes from.

Why is total oblivion not an option? Wouldn't it be kinder to end a soul's existence rather than subject them to eternal torture?

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Silent Dave

Why is total oblivion not an option? Wouldn't it be kinder to end a soul's existence rather than subject them to eternal torture?

Well if God did that, then it would me that we have no intrinsic value, but he is treating us more as a means to an end.

But God loves us enough to not destroy his image, and respects us enough to honor our choice. Despite how much it hurts him.

[Silent Dave]

Originally Posted by Pico

Well if God did that, then it would me that we have no intrinsic value, but he is treating us more as a means to an end.

What's wrong with that? Wouldn't someone who is eternally suffering gladly give up the abstract notion of intrinsic value in exchange for being spared further suffering?

But God loves us enough to not destroy his image, and respects us enough to honor our choice. Despite how much it hurts him.

How is that an act of respect? When children don't want to eat their vegetables, is it an act of respect to honor their choice and let them be unhealthy, or to make them eat them in spite of their choice? Moreover, since God is infinitely perfect (your own words), how could anything at all hurt him, much less in the eternal way that those of us not free of sin are subject to?

[shadowman]

whatabout how much it hurts US???!!!! (to picos last post)


and if we have intrinsic value (Im glad that god decides we do), then we shouldnt be subject to this insane world god made for us, as well as the "find jesus or perish" maze that he set up.

why doesnt he just confront all of us in the real world and say; listen here guys this is what I want.... hmmm, then EVERYONE could be "saved"

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Silent Dave

What's wrong with that? Wouldn't someone who is eternally suffering gladly give up the abstract notion of intrinsic value in exchange for being spared further suffering?
How is that an act of respect? When children don't want to eat their vegetables, is it an act of respect to honor their choice and let them be unhealthy, or to make them eat them in spite of their choice? Moreover, since God is infinitely perfect (your own words), how could anything at all hurt him, much less in the eternal way that those of us not free of sin are subject to?

To treat people as having no intrinsic value but as a means to an end is immoral, and is completely against God's character.

And a loving parent knows that vegetables are good for their child. So out of love for their well being they will try to get their child to eat vegetables. But if they refuse to eat them, what else can teh parrent do? stuff them down their kid's throats? That is wrong.

God is hurt because he has compassion for us. And the origional word for "compassions" means to feel the pain of someone. God does not just leave us in this world, but he suffers along with us. Besides, you are not God, you have no idea how much it pains God when his image is lost. I do not know. But i know that God loves us more than anything which is why he punished himself (Jesus) for our sins and provided a way out of damnation.

[shadowman]

its wrong to stuff vegetables in some kids mouth but its ok for god to punish people for all time?

why is god so obsessed with punishing if he sympathizes with us? I guess he only sympathizes to an extent.

SOMEONE HAD TO PAY BY GOD

so he punished himself!

why have damnation in the first place? there must be some reason god put it there?

[Pico]

Originally Posted by shadowman

its wrong to stuff vegetables in some kids mouth but its ok for god to punish people for all time?

why is god so obsessed with punishing if he sympathizes with us? I guess he only sympathizes to an extent.

SOMEONE HAD TO PAY BY GOD

so he punished himself!

why have damnation in the first place? there must be some reason god put it there?

What i meant by teh Vegetables was that it is also wrong for God to force salvation on someone who doesn't want. If we truly want it, we will ask God for it and he will give it if our hearts are sincere.

I'm going to say this for the last time, I'm tired of repeating myself.

God offered us a way out, but we have to choose it. God does not want to punish people, but his nature demands he judge sin, he has no choice. And the penalty for sin is death (Hell is death, being cut off from the living God). Go is obsessed with saving people, but some people have hardened their hearts against God so much that they might not even notice God's nudges, because they don't know God. The people who reject God their whole lives get the penalty that comes with their sin.

It takes an act of faith and will power to come to God. Anyone who is lost has themselves to blame because they chose the fate they received by rejecting God's gift of Salvation.

[shadowman]

why does his nature demand that he judge sin?

[Silent Dave]

Originally Posted by Pico

To treat people as having no intrinsic value but as a means to an end is immoral, and is completely against God's character.

If you see a starving child on the street, would you feed him? If so, why are you treating him as a means to the end of alleviating his hunger? If not, how can your inaction possibly be considered moral?

And a loving parent knows that vegetables are good for their child. So out of love for their well being they will try to get their child to eat vegetables. But if they refuse to eat them, what else can teh parrent do? stuff them down their kid's throats? That is wrong.

Why is it wrong, if the child's health depends on it? To make the analogy even clearer, let's say it isn't vegetables, but a critical medicine that the child MUST take in order to stay alive, but refuses to take because it tastes yucky -- wouldn't any loving parent do just that, stuff the medicine down the kid's throat?


[quote]
God is hurt because he has compassion for us. And the origional word for "compassions" means to feel the pain of someone. God does not just leave us in this world, but he suffers along with us.
[quote]

You haven't answered my question. How is it possible for an infinitely perfect being to feel any hurt at all, whether it's his own or someone else's?

Besides, you are not God, you have no idea how much it pains God when his image is lost. I do not know.

Then for all you know to the contrary, doesn't God feel zero pain when his image is lost?

But i know that God loves us more than anything which is why he punished himself (Jesus) for our sins and provided a way out of damnation.

Out of whose damnation?

[Silent Dave]

Originally Posted by Pico

To treat people as having no intrinsic value but as a means to an end is immoral, and is completely against God's character.

If you see a starving child on the street, would you feed him? If so, why are you treating him as a means to the end of alleviating his hunger? If not, how can your inaction possibly be considered moral?

And a loving parent knows that vegetables are good for their child. So out of love for their well being they will try to get their child to eat vegetables. But if they refuse to eat them, what else can teh parrent do? stuff them down their kid's throats? That is wrong.

Why is it wrong, if the child's health depends on it? To make the analogy even clearer, let's say it isn't vegetables, but a critical medicine that the child MUST take in order to stay alive, but refuses to take because it tastes yucky -- wouldn't any loving parent do just that, stuff the medicine down the kid's throat?


[quote]
God is hurt because he has compassion for us. And the origional word for "compassions" means to feel the pain of someone. God does not just leave us in this world, but he suffers along with us.
[quote]

You haven't answered my question. How is it possible for an infinitely perfect being to feel any hurt at all, whether it's his own or someone else's?

Besides, you are not God, you have no idea how much it pains God when his image is lost. I do not know.

Then for all you know to the contrary, doesn't God feel zero pain when his image is lost?

But i know that God loves us more than anything which is why he punished himself (Jesus) for our sins and provided a way out of damnation.

Out of whose damnation?