why does god punish flawed creatures that he made forever - Page 4

Pico · 07-15-2007, 09:58 PM

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Originally Posted by shadowman

why does his nature demand that he judge sin?

It's just the way he is, and there's nothing he can do about it.

Silent Dave · 07-15-2007, 10:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Pico

To treat people as having no intrinsic value but as a means to an end is immoral, and is completely against God's character.

If you see a starving child on the street, would you feed him? If so, why are you treating him as a means to the end of alleviating his hunger? If not, how can your inaction possibly be considered moral?

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And a loving parent knows that vegetables are good for their child. So out of love for their well being they will try to get their child to eat vegetables. But if they refuse to eat them, what else can teh parrent do? stuff them down their kid's throats? That is wrong.

Why is it wrong, if the child's health depends on it? To make the analogy even clearer, let's say it isn't vegetables, but a critical medicine that the child MUST take in order to stay alive, but refuses to take because it tastes yucky -- wouldn't any loving parent do just that, stuff the medicine down the kid's throat?

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God is hurt because he has compassion for us. And the origional word for "compassions" means to feel the pain of someone. God does not just leave us in this world, but he suffers along with us.
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You haven't answered my question. How is it possible for an infinitely perfect being to feel any hurt at all, whether it's his own or someone else's?

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Besides, you are not God, you have no idea how much it pains God when his image is lost. I do not know.

Then for all you know to the contrary, doesn't God feel zero pain when his image is lost?

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But i know that God loves us more than anything which is why he punished himself (Jesus) for our sins and provided a way out of damnation.

Out of whose damnation?

Silent Dave · 07-15-2007, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

It's just the way he is, and there's nothing he can do about it.

So if God's nature is that he must lie to the world in the Bible, lie to individual humans in divine revelation, and send everyone to Hell regardless of belief, there's nothing he can do about it? Remember, since we cannot know God's thoughts, we cannot know that that's not the case.

shadowman · 07-15-2007, 10:04 PM

if god is perfect, why does he care about sin.

if he is perfect, he wouldnt make things that sin.

Silent Dave · 07-15-2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

To treat people as having no intrinsic value but as a means to an end is immoral, and is completely against God's character.

If you see a starving child on the street, would you feed him? If so, why are you treating him as a means to the end of alleviating his hunger? If not, how can your inaction possibly be considered moral?

Quote:

And a loving parent knows that vegetables are good for their child. So out of love for their well being they will try to get their child to eat vegetables. But if they refuse to eat them, what else can teh parrent do? stuff them down their kid's throats? That is wrong.

Why is it wrong, if the child's health depends on it? To make the analogy even clearer, let's say it isn't vegetables, but a critical medicine that the child MUST take in order to stay alive, but refuses to take because it tastes yucky -- wouldn't any loving parent do just that, stuff the medicine down the kid's throat?

Silent Dave · 07-15-2007, 10:06 PM

I also wrote a response to the whole "instrinsic value" thing, but for some reason the forum isn't letting it show up. Let me try just posting my own bits without the quoted bits . . .

If you see a starving child on the street, would you feed him? If so, why are you treating him as a means to the end of alleviating his hunger? If not, how can your inaction possibly be considered moral?

Why is it wrong, if the child's health depends on it? To make the analogy even clearer, let's say it isn't vegetables, but a critical medicine that the child MUST take in order to stay alive, but refuses to take because it tastes yucky -- wouldn't any loving parent do just that, stuff the medicine down the kid's throat?

You haven't answered my question. How is it possible for an infinitely perfect being to feel any hurt at all, whether it's his own or someone else's?

Then for all you know to the contrary, doesn't God feel zero pain when his image is lost?

Out of whose damnation?

Pico · 07-15-2007, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Dave

So if God's nature is that he must lie to the world in the Bible, lie to individual humans in divine revelation, and send everyone to Hell regardless of belief, there's nothing he can do about it? Remember, since we cannot know God's thoughts, we cannot know that that's not the case.

Well you're part right. I know God, I know his word stands true. I've tested it out and it holds up just like it says. One thing it says is that Satan will try as hard as he can to discredit God and make people not believe, which is what he did with Adam and Eve. Saying "you will surely not die. even he knows this." and that's how he deceived Adam and eve into eating from the fruit God said not to eat. And since they disobeyed God, they suffered teh consequences.

Silent Dave · 07-15-2007, 10:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Pico

Well you're part right. I know God, I know his word stands true. I've tested it out and it holds up just like it says. One thing it says is that Satan will try as hard as he can to discredit God and make people not believe, which is what he did with Adam and Eve. Saying "you will surely not die. even he knows this." and that's how he deceived Adam and eve into eating from the fruit God said not to eat. And since they disobeyed God, they suffered teh consequences.

How exactly did you "test out" that particular bit?

Pico · 07-15-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

if god is perfect, why does he care about sin.

if he is perfect, he wouldnt make things that sin.

If we didn't not have the option to choose sin, then we wouldn't have free will and would be mere robots, and we wouldn't be able to choose God. He would merely be making us obey him.

Pico · 07-15-2007, 10:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Silent Dave

How exactly did you "test out" that particular bit?

By doing what it says: Accept God by faith, pray every chance you get, study the Bible daily. You have absolutely no idea what happens to a person when one does that. You will that what the scriptures say prove true. But you need to coem to God by faith, that's the most important thing, for God said "do not test teh Lord your God."

shadowman · 07-15-2007, 10:23 PM

perfect beings wouldnt sin, option to sin there or not.

Silent Dave · 07-15-2007, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

By doing what it says: Accept God by faith, pray every chance you get, study the Bible daily. You have absolutely no idea what happens to a person when one does that. You will that what the scriptures say prove true. But you need to coem to God by faith, that's the most important thing, for God said "do not test teh Lord your God."

I'm not talking about testing God -- I'm takling about testing the Bible, and your faith. The Bible also says, "test everything, and hold fast to that which is good."

Now you say you've done that with respect to the historical events in a historial Garden of Eden involving a historical Adam, historical Eve, and historical talking snake. So that means you accepted God by faith, began to pray every chance you got, studied the Bible daily, and . . . . what? One day you woke up and there was a time machine in your bedroom, with the controls set to 4004 BC? How does your faith make you a historian?

Silent Dave · 07-15-2007, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

If we didn't not have the option to choose sin, then we wouldn't have free will and would be mere robots, and we wouldn't be able to choose God. He would merely be making us obey him.

Wouldn't any sane person rather be a robot in eternal bliss, than a free agent in eternal torment?

Faithfulservant · 07-16-2007, 02:42 AM

Why are you so afraid, Dave? You think God will take away your free will if you chose to believe Him? Its an understanding that you come to that when you are born again in the Spirit.. His will becomes your will. You trust that His will is perfect in every way. The number one command in the bible is to fear not.

Pico · 07-16-2007, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Dave

I'm not talking about testing God -- I'm takling about testing the Bible, and your faith. The Bible also says, "test everything, and hold fast to that which is good."

Now you say you've done that with respect to the historical events in a historial Garden of Eden involving a historical Adam, historical Eve, and historical talking snake. So that means you accepted God by faith, began to pray every chance you got, studied the Bible daily, and . . . . what? One day you woke up and there was a time machine in your bedroom, with the controls set to 4004 BC? How does your faith make you a historian?

I've experienced God's peace, love, and joy first-hand. And I saw a dramatic change in myself for the better from the inside. Something an unbeliever probably can't understand.

It doesn't make me a historian. But i do believe God when he tells us how he made the world because he was there to see it and we weren't.