why does god punish flawed creatures that he made forever - Page 5

Silent Dave · 07-16-2007, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

I've experienced God's peace, love, and joy first-hand. And I saw a dramatic change in myself for the better from the inside. Something an unbeliever probably can't understand.

It doesn't make me a historian. But i do believe God when he tells us how he made the world because he was there to see it and we weren't.

So that's how you've "tested out" the factual inerrancy of the Bible? By that warm, fuzzy feeling inside you when you think about God?

Would you be offended if I said that wasn't good enough?

Silent Dave · 07-16-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Why are you so afraid, Dave? You think God will take away your free will if you chose to believe Him? Its an understanding that you come to that when you are born again in the Spirit.. His will becomes your will. You trust that His will is perfect in every way. The number one command in the bible is to fear not.

If God's will was for you to kill innocent babies, would you do so? (And don't bother saying that God would never do such a thing, for that neccesitates a certain knowledge of God's thoughts, which according to Pico is impossible to have.)

17th Angel · 07-16-2007, 03:17 PM

The "flawed"... Punish themselves.

Saltmeister · 07-16-2007, 06:44 PM

Finally.....finally......someone outside the discussion disturbs its wonderful peace. 17th Angel, illuminate the thread with your angelic splendour. Do your thing. Let's join in with the chorus of the patriots.

Quahom1 · 07-16-2007, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

if god is perfect, why does he care about sin.

if he is perfect, he wouldnt make things that sin.

1. He can't stand the sight of imperfection, since He is perfect.

2. He gave man free will (but it wasn't to do as we please).

3. Man does not like to be told what to do (as you seem to attest to).

4. God cares about sin, because He wants His creation to be "perfect" and man is His "crowning" achievement. Even the angels look upon man and salvation with awe...why can't you?

v/r

Q

shadowman · 07-16-2007, 10:52 PM

he made the imperfection, how can he be intolerant of something that he caused into being.

who says that a perfect being cant tolerate imperfection

why should a perfect being be wrathful and vengeful at imperfection? shouldnt it be accepting and forgiving? even if you say that jesus forgives, we still know that god thinks that we all "deserve" the consequences of gods revenge on our imperfect nature. that is not really being perfectly forgiving....

again, why didnt god make everything perfect? he had the choice. without god there is no sin. and god COULD have made a creation with no sin.

and I am plenty awed by existence, believe me. but not by flawed ideas that justify people being tortured forever....

Quahom1 · 07-16-2007, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

he made the imperfection, how can he be intolerant of something that he caused into being.

who says that a perfect being cant tolerate imperfection

why should a perfect being be wrathful and vengeful at imperfection? shouldnt it be accepting and forgiving? even if you say that jesus forgives, we still know that god thinks that we all "deserve" the consequences of gods revenge on our imperfect nature. that is not really being perfectly forgiving....

again, why didnt god make everything perfect? he had the choice. without god there is no sin. and god COULD have made a creation with no sin.

and I am plenty awed by existence, believe me. but not by flawed ideas that justify people being tortured forever....

He made nothing of the sort. He made perfection...we have free will...we chose to be imperfect. It isn't God's fault Shadow...it's ours.

The sooner you figure that out, the better.

v/r

Q

shadowman · 07-16-2007, 11:05 PM

if we were perfection we wouldnt choose the wrong path. it wouldnt be possible.

if perfect beings glorify and worship god, then we are obviously imperfect since we dont always choose to obey...

ALSO

while it maybe our fault that we choose the wrong actions, its not our fault that god punishes imperfect beings forever, that was gods idea.

Quahom1 · 07-17-2007, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

if we were perfection we wouldnt choose the wrong path. it wouldnt be possible.

if perfect beings glorify and worship god, then we are obviously imperfect since we dont always choose to obey...

ALSO

while it maybe our fault that we choose the wrong actions, its not our fault that god punishes imperfect beings forever, that was gods idea.

Tell that to Lucifer...he was second only to the trinity. He had it all dude. And he wanted more. God wasn't about to abdicate his seat for a "created being", no matter how "perfect" he thought himself to be.

In navigation, the gyroscope must be perfectly balanced in order to spin at thousands upon thousands of RPMs to keep an accurate fix on the location and direction a ship is heading. However, there is a critical RPM that the gyroscope can not achieve or exceed, before it becomes unstable and flies apart. Up to that point, it is nearly perfect as an instrument, but after that, it is worthless pieces of junk.

Man is like that. When out of control, we are no longer nearly perfect, and fly apart...and all we leave behind is junk.

God is infinite, we are not, no matter how close to perfect we may be. We're still "created beings".

v/r

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shadowman · 07-17-2007, 03:13 AM

and he torments us for not being perfect?

Pico · 07-17-2007, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

and he torments us for not being perfect?

Look, you've been asking the same question over and over again. This is the truth as God himself revealed to us in his word:

God made us perfect. We disobeyed God willingly (all of us). God said that disobeying him warrants us death and separation from him by sinning. Everyone sinned and deserves damnation because of our own actions. Jesus (God himself who created us) stepped in and took the punishment for all of us. Anyone who asks for forgiveness with a sincere heart is granted it and cleansed from their sin. Anyone who doesn't suffers the consequences: separation from God in hell. God has to judge sin because that's his nature. God does not want anyone to go to hell so he provided a free way out, but sadly some people don't accept his gift, and they suffer the consequences for their actions.

I've said this countless times and you say God is obsessed with damnation, but it's really YOU who's obsessed with damnation. God wants every one to live with Him. But he can't make them choose.

The choice is yours. I've made mine.

Quahom1 · 07-17-2007, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

and he torments us for not being perfect?

Nope. YOU torment YOU for not being perfect. The rest of us just deal with the fact that we aren't.

v/r

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Quahom1 · 07-17-2007, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

he made each and every one of us right? why is he letting us go through this insane world where we could end up lost and going to hell?

we suck at everything and have many flaws, why punish us for those flaws?

He has a way out...care to test the theory?

v/r

Q

Faithfulservant · 07-17-2007, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Dave

If God's will was for you to kill innocent babies, would you do so? (And don't bother saying that God would never do such a thing, for that neccesitates a certain knowledge of God's thoughts, which according to Pico is impossible to have.)

The known will of God is in the bible..
The unknown will of God you find on your knees..
I know what my Lord Jesus said and killing babies was not one of them.
I know what the Lord speaks to me in prayer and killing babies is not one of them...

Quahom1 · 07-17-2007, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

The known will of God is in the bible..
The unknown will of God you find on your knees..
I know what my Lord Jesus said and killing babies was not one of them.
I know what the Lord speaks to me in prayer and killing babies is not one of them...

Who the hell is killing babies? I got two grand kids on the way, last thing I want to hear is people killing babies.