why does god punish flawed creatures that he made forever - Page 8

Pico · 07-17-2007, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

what am I being saved from. why do humans need saving. why are we created in the position of needing salvation?

dude, shadow, how many times do we have to answer this question?

I know I've answered it countless times and you still can't accept it. I'm sorry to say but there's nothing else to say to you. Either you accept the truth or you don't. That's up to you, disciples of the Lord can only do so much.

Quahom1 · 07-17-2007, 07:42 AM

Hey all!

This is the Christian Forum. We (Christians) do not have to fight those who are not. You come here and ask questions, question answers, and stay or walk away.

However, non Christians do NOT have liberty to bash the faithful on this forum. That was NEVER the intent of Comparative Religion, never the intent of the owner of this forum, and not the moderators' intent to let you get away with it.

I hope I as representitive of CR have made this quite clear...because I'm like savoir faire...

And there is a team of like minded folk backing the administration up. All are guests here...please bear that in mind.

v/r

joshua

Moderator

Quahom1 · 07-17-2007, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

if god doesnt want people in hell, why did he make hell. and dont say for the devil and his angels. thats BS. people are gonna go to hell and god knows it. why doesnt he do anything about it?

Let me ask you a common sense question. You are in a swamp and the muck is pulling you down. In short, you are drowning. Someone comes along with a thick rope and throws it your way (right across your arms), but you refuse to take hold of the rope, and you drown.

Who's fault is that Shadow? The guy with the rope? Or your own?

Don't blame God for your own misery. He keeps throwing you a rope, and you keep throwing it away. If you drown, it is because you choose to, not because no one tried to help you.

v/r

Q

Pico · 07-17-2007, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You know Dave for a supposed limited being, you seem to have a large ego concerning self. Pico loves the Lord. I do too.

Yay! I'm glad someone can see that I love the Lord and am trying to honor him

17th Angel · 07-17-2007, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Nope. YOU torment YOU for not being perfect. The rest of us just deal with the fact that we aren't.

v/r

Q

Ugh yea... I covered that... I think I did it better though.... More sinister....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Finally.....finally......someone outside the discussion disturbs its wonderful peace. 17th Angel, illuminate the thread with your angelic splendour. Do your thing. Let's join in with the chorus of the patriots.

I added value to this... To say I disturb it, like I am not welcome to talk about it...... pffffffft..... All he shall touch shall be illuminated with a glow of divine bluntness.... For I am 17th... My bluntness will be done. (Charlotte church - O holy night, playing in the background..... and it got to the holy intense bit... Got carried away there.)

Saltmeister · 07-17-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I added value to this... To say I disturb it, like I am not welcome to talk about it...... pffffffft..... All he shall touch shall be illuminated with a glow of divine bluntness.... For I am 17th... My bluntness will be done. (Charlotte church - O holy night, playing in the background..... and it got to the holy intense bit... Got carried away there.)

Hey don't get the wrong idea about the "disturbing the wonderful peace" thing. That was actually a bit of irony (I implied the opposite).

I was really trying to disguise the real intention of what I was saying. We kind of left Pico and Dave in the thread to fend for themselves. Whatever it was, it wasn't quite as peaceful. I think the exchange may have been more fruitful if others joined in. We left them there to writhe in pain in their hour of need. I couldn't think of something good to say to each of them, so I was hoping you might have had something as you tend to be more creative than me.

Trouble was, as Quahom said, there was a bit of an imbalance of "mean and nasty Christians" and not enough "nice Christians" to produce the kind of environment that Dave might have wanted.

Saltmeister · 07-17-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

We are a couple of mean Christians...and we watch out for all. And I did not tell you to leave...I said be nice. (respectful).

Hey Quahom, why does he have to be nice to us in order for us to be nice to him? Have we not heard of pre-emptive kindness?

I can get mean if properly provoked, but I am generally quite mild and slow-tempered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Dave

You know, Pico, for a supposedly omnipotent being your god certainly has a lot of restrictions placed on his capabilities -- he HAS to do this, he HAS to do that, he CAN'T do this, he CAN'T do that, etc. I'm wondering what the precise biblical basis is for all of these restrictions.

Hi Dave, if you were wondering where all this came from there's one word for it all: apologetics.

It's hard to explain Christianity to people when we don't know how to be creative. Maybe if we became too creative, we'd start telling different stories. People would then have trouble understanding our religion because each of us tells a different story. So guess what? We created a philosophy as a model to define how it was all to work. Unfortunately, by doing so, we accidentally set limits and boundaries on God and other concepts in Christianity.

The aim was consistency. It was believed that consistency made the story more believable. If various Christian groups around the world all conformed to the same philosophy, it would make it all the more credible -- if only we had succeeded. We liked our philosophy, our model so much that we condemned and vilified those who wouldn't accept it.

The problem was not Christianity, but our stubbornness in adhering to this "philosophy" that set limits and boundaries on the meaning of the concepts in Christianity, rather than relying on the natural spontaneity and innocence of human beings to discover Christianity's true purpose and meaning. There is of course, no single "philosophy" (actually it's called a creed) that all Christians have adopted. But you will find that wherever there is disillusionment with the philosophy being taught, several things can happen: you leave Christianity, you go to another church or you create your own "philosophy."

With regards to God having limits and boundaries, no I don't believe in a God that follows rules. Jesus in the NT didn't make rules, and even when talking about "heaven" and "hell," he didn't define them. He instead spoke in metaphors and similes. He didn't set limits and boundaries on the meaning of heaven and hell, including their structure, their relative relationship with each other and who actually goes there. To actually define them, he'd be manipulating people. But he instead chose to use metaphors and similes.

There was actually a question on one of the other threads about whether or not "hell" was really a concept of Christianity. Jesus affirmed that in the NT, but didn't give us any criteria for determining whether a given person belongs in either of the two realms. Apart from affirming their existence, the only message common to all of them was that if we held fast to what was important to God, He would ultimately accept us. Since Jesus affirmed the existence of the two realms but gave no criteria for us to use to judge who belongs in what realm, Jesus couldn't be held responsible for manipulating anyone, as he didn't give any criteria that could be used for that purpose. It is the multitude of "philosophies" that have developed to explain Christianity that manipulate us.

I'm aware it was suggested somewhere in this thread that God was playing some game and following rules, but that was only to help explain how "life is a game where you play by the rules" to someone who needed to see it that way. What we read in the NT, or even what a Christian says in this thread, has to be seen in context. We all have our frames of reference.

I hope this is helpful. I wish I could have said this stuff sooner rather than later. I just couldn't think of anything meaningful before. Your comment above actually gave me much of the inspiration, so thanks for your provocative posts.

Your questions, however provocative, are quite understandable. You can't be blamed for harbouring the views you expressed, nor could you have been expected to accept what you were told. It just takes a completely different mindset. Nevertheless, as Quahom pointed out, many Christians here might be sensitive to some of the matter you posted . . . so there's a risk.

This hopefully makes worthwhile whatever pain or suffering you endured in the last few posts. If not, maybe a few more visitors may help!!!

Quahom1 · 07-17-2007, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Ugh yea... I covered that... I think I did it better though.... More sinister....

I added value to this... To say I disturb it, like I am not welcome to talk about it...... pffffffft..... All he shall touch shall be illuminated with a glow of divine bluntness.... For I am 17th... My bluntness will be done. (Charlotte church - O holy night, playing in the background..... and it got to the holy intense bit... Got carried away there.)

What was that? Your version of Psalm 123? lol

17th Angel · 07-17-2007, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

What was that? Your version of Psalm 123? lol

Oh we have endured much ridicule from the proud and much contempt from the arrogant....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Hey don't get the wrong idea about the "disturbing the wonderful peace" thing. That was actually a bit of irony (I implied the opposite).

I was really trying to disguise the real intention of what I was saying. We kind of left Pico and Dave in the thread to fend for themselves. Whatever it was, it wasn't quite as peaceful. I think the exchange may have been more fruitful if others joined in. We left them there to writhe in pain in their hour of need. I couldn't think of something good to say to each of them, so I was hoping you might have had something as you tend to be more creative than me.

Trouble was, as Quahom said, there was a bit of an imbalance of "mean and nasty Christians" and not enough "nice Christians" to produce the kind of environment that Dave might have wanted.

Oh I see.... I seeeeeee, *gets a nice christian shirt* if they are down a man I can play on their side..

Quahom1 · 07-17-2007, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Hey Quahom, why does he have to be nice to us in order for us to be nice to him? Have we not heard of pre-emptive kindness?

I can get mean if properly provoked, but I am generally quite mild and slow-tempered.

Hi Dave, if you were wondering where all this came from there's one word for it all: apologetics.

It's hard to explain Christianity to people when we don't know how to be creative. Maybe if we became too creative, we'd start telling different stories. People would then have trouble understanding our religion because each of us tells a different story. So guess what? We created a philosophy as a model to define how it was all to work. Unfortunately, by doing so, we accidentally set limits and boundaries on God and other concepts in Christianity.

The aim was consistency. It was believed that consistency made the story more believable. If various Christian groups around the world all conformed to the same philosophy, it would make it all the more credible -- if only we had succeeded. We liked our philosophy, our model so much that we condemned and vilified those who wouldn't accept it.

The problem was not Christianity, but our stubbornness in adhering to this "philosophy" that set limits and boundaries on the meaning of the concepts in Christianity, rather than relying on the natural spontaneity and innocence of human beings to discover Christianity's true purpose and meaning. There is of course, no single "philosophy" (actually it's called a creed) that all Christians have adopted. But you will find that wherever there is disillusionment with the philosophy being taught, several things can happen: you leave Christianity, you go to another church or you create your own "philosophy."

With regards to God having limits and boundaries, no I don't believe in a God that follows rules. Jesus in the NT didn't make rules, and even when talking about "heaven" and "hell," he didn't define them. He instead spoke in metaphors and similes. He didn't set limits and boundaries on the meaning of heaven and hell, including their structure, their relative relationship with each other and who actually goes there. To actually define them, he'd be manipulating people. But he instead chose to use metaphors and similes.

There was actually a question on one of the other threads about whether or not "hell" was really a concept of Christianity. Jesus affirmed that in the NT, but didn't give us any criteria for determining whether a given person belongs in either of the two realms. Apart from affirming their existence, the only message common to all of them was that if we held fast to what was important to God, He would ultimately accept us. Since Jesus affirmed the existence of the two realms but gave no criteria for us to use to judge who belongs in what realm, Jesus couldn't be held responsible for manipulating anyone, as he didn't give any criteria that could be used for that purpose. It is the multitude of "philosophies" that have developed to explain Christianity that manipulate us.

I'm aware it was suggested somewhere in this thread that God was playing some game and following rules, but that was only to help explain how "life is a game where you play by the rules" to someone who needed to see it that way. What we read in the NT, or even what a Christian says in this thread, has to be seen in context. We all have our frames of reference.

I hope this is helpful. I wish I could have said this stuff sooner rather than later. I just couldn't think of anything meaningful before. Your comment above actually gave me much of the inspiration, so thanks for your provocative posts.

Your questions, however provocative, are quite understandable. You can't be blamed for harbouring the views you expressed, nor could you have been expected to accept what you were told. It just takes a completely different mindset. Nevertheless, as Quahom pointed out, many Christians here might be sensitive to some of the matter you posted . . . so there's a risk.

This hopefully makes worthwhile whatever pain or suffering you endured in the last few posts. If not, maybe a few more visitors may help!!!

"yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil...for I'm the meanest son of a B**ch in the valley..."

...just ask my ex's.

Quahom1 · 07-17-2007, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Hey don't get the wrong idea about the "disturbing the wonderful peace" thing. That was actually a bit of irony (I implied the opposite).

I was really trying to disguise the real intention of what I was saying. We kind of left Pico and Dave in the thread to fend for themselves. Whatever it was, it wasn't quite as peaceful. I think the exchange may have been more fruitful if others joined in. We left them there to writhe in pain in their hour of need. I couldn't think of something good to say to each of them, so I was hoping you might have had something as you tend to be more creative than me.

Trouble was, as Quahom said, there was a bit of an imbalance of "mean and nasty Christians" and not enough "nice Christians" to produce the kind of environment that Dave might have wanted.

You can play "goalie"...get to wear your own shirt...

17th Angel · 07-17-2007, 01:35 PM

I'll do my best..

To save the oncoming shots of your foe....

Quahom1 · 07-17-2007, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I'll do my best..

To save the oncoming shots of your foe....

Ah, sh*t...can't argue there soldier...

17th Angel · 07-17-2007, 01:42 PM

Bit off topic, but heeey I am like one of the forefathers of going off topic on threads..... You doing ok Q, everything good? Just thought I'd ask.

Saltmeister · 07-17-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You can play "goalie"...get to wear your own shirt...

lol I was waiting until I had something good to say but didn't want to be seen as supporting one side over the other. I was getting 17th Angel to lighten things up by pulling something out from his bag of jokes (ok, 17th Angel doesn't think his posts are funny, but the right words ..... sometimes come out).