why does god punish flawed creatures that he made forever

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silent Dave

You do realize that a test works both ways, right?

That is, if shadowman gets on his knees and prays sincerely for forgiveness -- or whatever it is you says he has to do -- and nothing happens, then that would prove your theory wrong. Are you willing to give up your Christianity if the test is negative?

God's word can not come back void Dave. So the test is only one way. Sometimes patience is in order though to see results, especially in this instant gratification world.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Bit off topic, but heeey I am like one of the forefathers of going off topic on threads..... You doing ok Q, everything good? Just thought I'd ask.

what, are you "skychic" or something?
Both boys are home from the war, so I'm good. Thanks.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

what, are you "skychic" or something?
Both boys are home from the war, so I'm good. Thanks.

Yeah suprised me too... I never saw it coming.

Family is good.... Hope you are all having some good times...

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

lol I was waiting until I had something good to say but didn't want to be seen as supporting one side over the other. I was getting 17th Angel to lighten things up by pulling something out from his bag of jokes (ok, 17th Angel doesn't think his posts are funny, but the right words ..... sometimes come out).

lol... I was kinda ..messing with you... Of course I think my posts are funny... I wet myself laughing at how funny and amazing I am.... Shucks...

[Silent Dave]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That is exactly what I said. If you can't respect the Christian forum, please find solace elsewhere...and I make no excuses for what I say. Christian bashers are not welcome here.

I'm I perfectly clear now?

You are not. As I've said, my position is that I have been respectful and have not been bashing Christians, and it is my intention to continue as I have been doing, should I be permitted to continue posting in this forum. As moderator of this forum, do you so permit me? Yes or no?

[17th Angel]

To get respect you have to give....... ?

[BlaznFattyz]

you all know god created people
if god is perfect why are we not perfect.
wait we are?... or we are not? are you saying god is not perfect now?
so he just made us to condemn us?
what?
so he created flawed beings being he is flawed?
hell in eternity?
god is love only right?
did you ask god this?
how did you know he spoke to you, did you run some kind of test?
respect? what?
i should stay?
i should go?
can i post still?
i cant post?
obviously i love listening to myself ask the same questions over and over and over again...

now im bored.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Silent Dave

You are not. As I've said, my position is that I have been respectful and have not been bashing Christians, and it is my intention to continue as I have been doing, should I be permitted to continue posting in this forum. As moderator of this forum, do you so permit me? Yes or no?

Greetings, Dave.

I noticed by looking at the panel on the left that you're a new member. Welcome to CR!!! After a while you'll get used to CR, the way people see things, and perhaps even notice that we don't all believe the same thing or see things the same way. Yet many of us identify with the label of "Christian."

Post #109 is my observation and analysis of what's been happening with Christianity.

Creeds and doctrines taught by the various denominations in Christianity often put many limits and boundaries on the notions and concepts of "hell," "Christian," "heaven" and "God." Rules are made on what people are to believe to give them a sense of comfort in that they are "in the safe zone."

This is what causes much of the disgust over Christianity and the New Testament. The people who can't follow the rules are sent to hell because they're heretics. The rest God accepts.

This obviously doesn't sound very just. Some of the people who are able to follow the rules might be really rule, arrogant, conceited people. Some of the ones who can't follow the rules, on the other hand, are really decent, polite, loving, kind and generous people. So God throws away nice, dignified, innocent people who couldn't follow the doctrinal rules taught by the different denominations.

Much of the time, we don't think that the stuff we're being told to believe are rules. But that's what they are -- rules. You have to believe what you're told, because otherwise you're denying the truth. Besides, that's what everyone else in the church does.

The thing is, it's one thing to believe something because that's what you were told, because that's what the pastor or priest said, and to appreciate why you do it.

There is a difference between doctrine-based beliefs and experiental beliefs. Doctrine-based beliefs have to do with traditions -- they're basically what I described above -- you believe what you are told. Experiental beliefs -- obviously derive from your life experiences. You believe in something because you've worked out for yourself that that is the way it was meant to be. My personal view is that if you really want to adhere to tradition, it is important to have some affirmative experiences associated with those traditions -- experiences that are compelling reasons to believe in them.

Beliefs have to be experientally affirmative, not drilled into our minds without a reason with which we can identify -- indoctrinated.

Christianity is not limited to traditions. Traditions are just a starting point. People often learn about Christianity from their Christian friends, and whatever notion or concept they have of Christianity is limited to what their Christian friends tell them. Whatever notion you have of Christianity is then limited to the church you go to. If your first experiences are bad, you might then decide it's not for you.

If having a Christian identity is important to you, then search high and low. I assure you, there is more out there. Read a lot of books. Raid the church library. Surf the Internet. Discover the "Christian" in you. It all depends whether or not you want to be Christian. Just like Jews, Christians don't like it when their religion isn't taken seriously. It's seen as disrespect. They take it personally.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Just like Jews, Christians don't like it when their religion isn't taken seriously. It's seen as disrespect. They take it personally.

i dont know about all that. christians don't culturally or traditionally own their religion, its really not even a religion some may say, rather a personal relationship with god, which i also subscribe to. so if you take god seriously then you will want to pray to him and do the things he asks of you. not wanting a relationship with god is not hurting christianity, but going against god and his son. christians come from all walks of life; poor, rich, jews, latins, anglos, africans, etc. what we all have in common is that we are saved by the blood of christ and we know with him there is eternal life--it is that we wish to share. just like with your children or friends, if you know that drinking and driving is bad, you will warn them about it, or if you tell someone its not good to be angry all the time and dont start fights because something bad may happen one day, its because you know better and wish to spread that info to others--this is done out of brotherly love. for those that wish to listen to it and believe--that is called wisdom. i have never heard of any christians looking at it as disrespect, but rather sadness that the lifeline you are trying to throw to a drowning victim and they didnt take it, well that is rather sad. god uses christians and the church through which the holy spirit works through to spread the gospel and continue the work of christ; feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, curing the ill, teaching about jesus. so as we christians are moved by the spirit to share and to care for others, it is done with a humble heart, not doing it to make ourselves greater from which ego and respect comes from, but for the glory of god.

[Impqueen]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

sadness that the lifeline you are trying to throw to a drowning victim and they didnt take it, well that is rather sad.

But we don't think we're drowning (or should I say we *know* we're not drowning), and for some people the fact that a lifeline keeps slapping them round the head is just plain annoying.

There is a difference between doctrine-based beliefs and experiental beliefs. Doctrine-based beliefs have to do with traditions -- they're basically what I described above -- you believe what you are told. Experiental beliefs -- obviously derive from your life experiences. You believe in something because you've worked out for yourself that that is the way it was meant to be. My personal view is that if you really want to adhere to tradition, it is important to have some affirmative experiences associated with those traditions -- experiences that are compelling reasons to believe in them.

That's an interesting point Saltmeister and I think it illustrates why just quoting the doctrine at people will not convert them. They have to have some sort of experience to take them across the belief/unbelief line.

For me, the question has been answered, now I understand the answer to the question from a Christian perspective. I don't believe it, but I get it. If we can't understand belief (or disbelief) without believing it ourselves then there is no point to a forum like this.

(On a side note - I felt that the moderating on this thread was heavy handed. It almost made me abandon the forum.)

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

But we don't think we're drowning (or should I say we *know* we're not drowning), and for some people the fact that a lifeline keeps slapping them round the head is just plain annoying.

grownup: make sure you do this or it wont work.
child: ya i know.
grownup: did you do what i told you.
child: ya i heard you already.

the child didnt understand the importance, just mouthed they knew everything, and never took the advice.
so, yeah, i totally understand what you are saying.

[Pico]

Check this out:

Originally Posted by John 3:18-21

18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

That is a reason some people don't believe and are punished.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Pico

Check this out:



That is a reason some people don't believe and are punished.

Oh right so long as you believe in him you can steal, murder, rape children, molest animals and escape judgement. But to have your own mind, to be open to the question, to constantly seek not just for yourself but for mankind means you are evil.

What utter c**p.

Tao

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Oh right so long as you believe in him you can steal, murder, rape children, molest animals and escape judgement. But to have your own mind, to be open to the question, to constantly seek not just for yourself but for mankind means you are evil.

What utter c**p.

Tao

if you believe in god, and love him and his word, then you will want to follow him and do what is holy and righteous, and when you fall short, jesus can forgive you and give you peace if you sincerely ask. anything else is false. the disturbingly nonsensical logic of open mind = evil is silly.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

if you believe in god, and love him and his word, then you will want to follow him and do what is holy and righteous, and when you fall short, jesus can forgive you and give you peace if you sincerely ask. anything else is false. the disturbingly nonsensical logic of open mind = evil is silly.

The disturbingly nonsensical logic of open mind!?!?!?!??????

I am flabbergasted, astounded, amazed and ultimately saddened to ever read such a line. You can delegate your rational to dogma. I never will and I'll take my chances before the almighty clear of conscience and responsible in myself for my every word and action. Without the get-out clause of "but I believed in you".
Truly that is just the most breathtaking complacency and dereliction of personal responsibility. You really think God would respect that? No God I could respect would.

Tao

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

i dont know about all that. christians don't culturally or traditionally own their religion, its really not even a religion some may say, rather a personal relationship with god, which i also subscribe to.

I agree that's true in theory, but that's not what Christians do in practice. We all want to know that somehow we're in the safe zone, but if we defined our religion too vaguely or if it was too abstract, it might include people who do not uphold he same concepts as us, do not think as we do, or do not have our history or "roots." There would otherwise be no meaningful difference between us and them.

So we define a set of rules to identify ourselves as different to those who do not have our history, do not have our "roots," do not value, love or adore what we value, love or adore. We give ourselves reasons to value the concepts that we hold dear, reasons that ultimately mean that we have and possess something that others do not possess.

We behave as if we owned it and had it.

I've come across a multitude of Christian web sites and literature where it seems like the main point is to show how the "Christian" as defined by the web site or literature possesses something that everyone else lacks. It makes it sound like the reason why you have to be Christian is because Christians have something that everyone else is missing.

I personally don't believe that is why people should belong to a "church." It's the other way round!!! A person is Christian because he is "lacking." He goes to church for fulfillment of his personal needs. Everyone else, those outside the church have figured it out. Christians are not the ones who "have it." No, they are the ones who "don't have it and need it." The real "Christian" is a person who is missing something that everybody else has already got. We're people with special needs, not providers of needs.

Church is a Sanctuary, a refuge, a safe haven, a place for reflection, reformation and regeneration when life goes sour. We go to churches because we were in hell and we needed a Sanctuary.