Why does life have to mean anything?

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Jim M2

If you believe in a personal God who cares about people then life does mean something because there is an afterlife that is influenced by your actions in this life.

In case you didn't know it, belief in God does not necessarily include belief in an afterlife.

Jonathan said:

the fact I'm going to cease to exist forever means I grasp every day and don't waste a second of it.

I think in order for anyone to say this they need one of two things:

• a terrible fear of non-existence, or
• a very meaningful life....

I've now read the rest of the posts and I have not changed my mind. Take this from someone who thinks the book of Job is a fairy tale. His problems were over in a few months. Jesus got to die after thirty-odd years.

[~Jonathan~]

I think in order for anyone to say this they need one of two things:

a terrible fear of non-existence, or
a very meaningful life....

All life has meaning and yet has none.

[Virtual_Cliff]

[quote=I think in order for anyone to say this they need one of two things:
a terrible fear of non-existence, or a very meaningful life. I've now read the rest of the posts and I have not changed my mind. Take this from someone who thinks the book of Job is a fairy tale. His problems were over in a few months. Jesus got to die after thirty-odd years.[/quote]

This isn't necessarily so. It may be true that some people are so scared of death they live in denial of it. But it is also true that many people fail to take this life seriously because they view it as a temporary aberration.

Everyone should have a meaningful life. What a trajedy to look back on a life wasted on money and status, for example.

As for Job, there's a very big difference between myth, full of eternal truths, and a fairy-tale. But that's another subject.

[~Jonathan~]

Personally I don't live in denial of death. Knowing I'm going to cease to exist makes me live my life as fully as possible. I don't fear death because when I'm there I won't know anything.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

Everyone should have a meaningful life. What a trajedy to look back on a life wasted on money and status, for example.

What "should be" and what actually is can be two very different things.

As for Job, there's a very big difference between myth, full of eternal truths, and a fairy-tale.

I should clarify what I meant by fairy-tale. I meant that if one's troubles and depression last such a limited time as his did they are hardly worth crying about. When life is a grinding burden every single day for decades on end, as most of my life has been, it is meaningless. It cannot be enjoyed. Job felt this way for a very short time only. The rest of his life was normal and enjoyable. And Jesus got to die after only three decades. I have lived at least a decade and a half longer than Jesus was on this earth. At thirty I still had some hope, some untried solutions; at forty I'd exhausted all the ideas anyone could offer within our faith community. Yet there is no end in sight. This is a tragedy, not because I wasted life in pleasure but because my life contained no pleasure. I used to use the word "boredom" to describe the experience; a spiritual director said a better word would be meaninglessness. This is a condition in which I lived for several decades. In comparison, Job's troubles are but a fairy-tale, a passing moment, yet it was considered bad enough to put into a sacred text. I think the reason people refuse to believe me and my account is that they are overwhelmed with the tragic sadness of the situation. Yet my life is but one of many lives that are/have been totally devoid of happiness and the joy of life. I think those people who will immerse themselves for five minutes in the feeling of hopelessness and joylessness some of us have endured for decades--I think they will understand the need for meaning in life. I am convinced that those people who insist that there is no meaning in life, yet they want to get the most out of life--I am convinced such people haven't a clue what meaninglessness is. Now if you want to add to that meaninglessness and pain, all you have to do is disbelieve the truth of the things I have written here.

[wil]

big hugs and compassion all around.

[Quahom1]

In the movie "Free Jack", the character played by Emmilio Estevaz asked pretty much the same question. There was a wise man sitting by the Hudson river (eating good rat), who answered him, "Have you ever seen an Eagle fly?...then in the middle of bringing food home for his family thought (this is a b^*#ch, and his eyes went crossed like the cartoons, and he fell and was no more?". Estevaz's character says "no", and the wise man (eating rat), answers "Neither have I, 'cause the eagle has too much pride."

If there is nothing else, there is man's pride. In other words there has got to be more than just this tempestuous and changing world. There must be a reason, we exist. And science doesn't have the answers, and religion might not have the answers, so we best find the answers we are all asking...because we have too much pride to just give up and quit...

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

[flowperson]

There are a number of biblical scholars that believe that Job may be the oldest book in the Bible in terms of its chronological age, and that it likely existed as an oral tradition among the desert peoples long before there were Hebrews around to codify it and set it down in writing. It teaches the value of patience, the importance of dealing with chaos in one's life without bitterness and anger, the value of entering and living through periods of mourning for things lost or expected, how to deal with the well-intended help of friends who do (or don't) try to help, and speaks of redemption in the face of hopelessness.

M. Scott Peck held the first of these attributes among the principles he related in his book, The Road Less Traveled, to be of primary importance to one's mental well being and health. He called it, an ability to delay gratification.

I've read most of your posts Ruby, and I find that you have a wonderful mind and an uncanny sense regarding the most effective ways to use it. We've all been through tough stuff and hopelessness, but maybe not as deep and as intense as yours. The very fact that you are still open and communicative about all of that shows that your contributions are respected and valued here. I was particularly struck by your sense of wonder and awe regarding nature and the natural world in general.

In short, I don't believe that Job is a fairy tale and neither do some scholars. And, at least one of its mythical themes was important enough to be featured in the most successful self-help book of modern times by a renowned psychiatrist and author, who is no longer with us, sadly. And, I believe that you are proving each day, if only through your active participation here, that you are not immersed in hopelessness, and are willing to celebrate the gift of life by enlightening us with your thoughts and feelings.

Have you tried obtaining an I-pod or other mp3 music player and just listening to your favorite tunes when you feel down ? St. John's Wort, Kava Kava, incense, scented candles, essential oils ? Such things, when prudently used to alter one's mood, can really help.

In short, take it all one day at a time, treat yourself in special ways once in a while, and let life surprise you, because that's what it's supposed to do. And remember to laugh at yourself as much as possible because... we deserve it.

flow....

[Thomas]

and let life surprise you, because that's what it's supposed to do.

Life as koan ... beautiful! ... thanks for that, Flow.

Thomas

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

In the movie "Free Jack", the character played by Emmilio Estevaz asked pretty much the same question. There was a wise man sitting by the Hudson river (eating good rat), who answered him, "Have you ever seen an Eagle fly?...then in the middle of bringing food home for his family thought (this is a b^*#ch, and his eyes went crossed like the cartoons, and he fell and was no more?". Estevaz's character says "no", and the wise man (eating rat), answers "Neither have I, 'cause the eagle has too much pride."

If there is nothing else, there is man's pride. In other words there has got to be more than just this tempestuous and changing world. There must be a reason, we exist. And science doesn't have the answers, and religion might not have the answers, so we best find the answers we are all asking...because we have too much pride to just give up and quit...

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

If that answer were actually accurate then there would never ever have been a law against suicide. If Christianity would see suicide i.e. "just give up and quit" as acceptable then there would never ever have been a law against suicide, there would never have been sermons against it or any other practices to shush it up and not talk about it and burying suicide victims outside the cemetary and shunning the sinner in death as well as in life.

Even with all of these strictures gone from our society in general, we still do all within human power to prevent suicides. WHY? It's the ultimate self-denial. Even if you judge it as ultimate selfishness, you're violating ethics. You're passing judgment on the validity of another person's feelings. And you're just postponing the inevitable--death for that person.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

If that answer were actually accurate then there would never ever have been a law against suicide. If Christianity would see suicide i.e. "just give up and quit" as acceptable then there would never ever have been a law against suicide, there would never have been sermons against it or any other practices to shush it up and not talk about it and burying suicide victims outside the cemetary and shunning the sinner in death as well as in life.

Even with all of these strictures gone from our society in general, we still do all within human power to prevent suicides. WHY? It's the ultimate self-denial. Even if you judge it as ultimate selfishness, you're violating ethics. You're passing judgment on the validity of another person's feelings. And you're just postponing the inevitable--death for that person.

More like the ultimate in denying others of self, I should think. And in Christian thought, "The Potterer has rights that the pots do not".

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[Virtual_Cliff]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I used to use the word "boredom" to describe the experience; a spiritual director said a better word would be meaninglessness. This is a condition in which I lived for several decades.

It is true that not everyone's life is a "happily ever after" story. Many people have died in appalling circumstances when everything they stood for seemd to have crashed in flames. Ann Frank (sp?) is but one example. Yet the very fact that they remained true to their own integrity to the end is an inspiration to everyone who comes after. Their strength gives us strength when we are low. There is meaning sometimes even when we can never know it.

[Eudaimonist]

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

Yet the very fact that they remained true to their own integrity to the end is an inspiration to everyone who comes after. Their strength gives us strength when we are low. There is meaning sometimes even when we can never know it.

Well put!


eudaimonia,

Mark