Why don't Christians worship as Jews do?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Dream

The trancendant can kill the inside just as well as the secular, so there is not advantage unless it can keep itself alive. Let the transcendent transcend for itself or not. Don't prop it up, and don't glue it back together. "...if he be a god, let him plead for himself, because one hath cast down his altar." (Jdg 6:31)

I'd give you some positive rep on this one, Dream, but alas, I'm done repped out.

Proverbs 16:18-19
18 Pride goes before destruction,
And a haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better to be of a humble spirit with the lowly,
Than to divide the spoil with the proud.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Dream

The trancendant can kill the inside just as well as the secular, so there is not advantage unless it can keep itself alive. Let the transcendent transcend for itself or not. Don't prop it up, and don't glue it back together. "...if he be a god, let him plead for himself, because one hath cast down his altar." (Jdg 6:31)

The transcendent cannot kill inside because it is the nature of human being itself. What kills are fixations on interpretations which is why any reputable teacher can only give when the student is ready to avoid them doing damage to themselves.

Secular concerns are not by definition bad. They are necessary for a healthy society. The harm comes when they begin to deny the importance of the conscious connection with the higher influences necessary for the creation of human individuality that consciously establishes this connection. Then instead of society serving Man as it should, Man becomes a slave to society and nothing more than a mechanical part of the "Great Beast."

The older I get, the more I see how essential it is to work with others to keep the ideas alive that further the growth of true human individuality even at the expense of the nastiest growls of the Great Beast.

[Dream]

I don't understand the higher influences you've mentioned. If they exist then why do you say it is "essential to work with others to keep the ideas alive?" Whatever causes those ideas to appear should cause them to happen again, shouldn't it?

Only a biological change can remove human potential to hate including our potential for genocide, and our need for individuality is nearly indistinguishable from our need for space. Death is all over the history books. Massive death (effectively improved infrastructure) stimulates civil progress, creativity and individuality. I don't see any ideology strong enough to change this.

[Dream]

Thanks Seattlegal, for the 'Rep' and the riddle.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Dream

I don't understand the higher influences you've mentioned. If they exist then why do you say it is "essential to work with others to keep the ideas alive?" Whatever causes those ideas to appear should cause them to happen again, shouldn't it?

Only a biological change can remove human potential to hate including our potential for genocide, and our need for individuality is nearly indistinguishable from our need for space. Death is all over the history books. Massive death (effectively improved infrastructure) stimulates civil progress, creativity and individuality. I don't see any ideology strong enough to change this.

This is a complex question. Is a biological or psychological change required? I appreciated how Simone Weil dealt with it in "The Need For Roots." She describes a human being as being like a plant. The roots feed on the earth and in this case society on the earth. The spiritual nature feeds on grace in the same way a plant feeds on the light of the sun. A balanced healthy human being then needs both the nourishment from good soil or a healthy society (metaxu) and the nourishment of grace and higher conscious influences like evolved humanity to acquire a human perspective for Man on earth that transcends our normal fallen reliance on power and force.

These are difficult ideas for anyone unfamiliar with such thought. Wiki does a good job on this in the section on Uprootedness if you're interested:

Simone Weil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Dream

Only a biological change can remove human potential to hate including our potential for genocide

Wouldn't that just be exchanging one form of slavery for another?

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Seattlegal

Wouldn't that just be exchanging one form of slavery for another?

Maybe. I wouldn't dare take it upon myself to reprogram humanity. On the other hand if we changed humanity's essence, we'd completely redefine the perception of slavery. The new humanity might think of mindless repetitive back breaking work as a vacation.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Dream

Maybe. I wouldn't dare take it upon myself to reprogram humanity. On the other hand if we changed humanity's essence, we'd completely redefine the perception of slavery. The new humanity might think of mindless repetitive back breaking work as a vacation.

Before thinking of changing a person's essence, you would first learn how to distinguish it from a person's personality. How would you do it?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

Before thinking of changing a person's essence, you would first learn how to distinguish it from a person's personality. How would you do it?

Personality is the outward expression of one's essence...

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Personality is the outward expression of one's essence...

But it isn't and most people think it is. Socrates understood it as potential:

"May the outward and inward man be at one." Socrates

The inner man contains our conscious evolutionary potential. The outer man or our personality is a conditioned animal that follows the cycles of dust to dust. As we are, we serve the animal rather than the animal serving us which is the ideal state when man is "one." Our essence through our collective ignorance doesn't develop and remains infantile while our personality adapts to our surroundings. It is an attribute of the fallen condition that collectively creates the "Great Beast."

Love for example remains for us at the selective animal level because the development of the ability to love from a higher more universal perspective is a function of a developing essence our personality prevents us from acquiring. Our personality develops the ability to fake it for the sake of appearance and often expresses it as platitudes without the ability to do so.

This is one reason so many people have a difficulty with forgiveness as it concerns Christianity. While it is true that attachments can kill or cripple the essence with conscious potential it is possible that a person can be living a conditioned life and all of a sudden awaken to the inner psychological vertical dimension and the sins which deny such awakening lose their power or as is said: forgiven. This change or metanoia brings a whole new meaning to human responsibility since what responsibility can a conditioned animal really have other than societal? But the awakening experience provides a choice that wasn't there before. Of course without having such an experience, this idea seems absurd since it is initially our personality that dictates our spiritual interests and remains in control until an essence experience of "awakening.".

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

But it isn't and most people think it is. Socrates understood it as potential:



The inner man contains our conscious evolutionary potential. The outer man or our personality is a conditioned animal that follows the cycles of dust to dust. As we are, we serve the animal rather than the animal serving us which is the ideal state when man is "one." Our essence through our collective ignorance doesn't develop and remains infantile while our personality adapts to our surroundings. It is an attribute of the fallen condition that collectively creates the "Great Beast."

Love for example remains for us at the selective animal level because the development of the ability to love from a higher more universal perspective is a function of a developing essence our personality prevents us from acquiring. Our personality develops the ability to fake it for the sake of appearance and often expresses it as platitudes without the ability to do so.

This is one reason so many people have a difficulty with forgiveness as it concerns Christianity. While it is true that attachments can kill or cripple the essence with conscious potential it is possible that a person can be living a conditioned life and all of a sudden awaken to the inner psychological vertical dimension and the sins which deny such awakening lose their power or as is said: forgiven. This change or metanoia brings a whole new meaning to human responsibility since what responsibility can a conditioned animal really have other than societal? But the awakening experience provides a choice that wasn't there before. Of course without having such an experience, this idea seems absurd since it is initially our personality that dictates our spiritual interests and remains in control until an essence experience of "awakening.".

What is being described above is a dysfunctional human being. It is a disconnect between the Super Ego, the Ego and the Id.

In a perfect world, the personality should mirror the essence, which should be a combination of the three levels of man's psychi, in balance.

Socrates reminds me of Solomon's lament.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

What is being described above is a dysfunctional human being. It is a disconnect between the Super Ego, the Ego and the Id.

In a perfect world, the personality should mirror the essence, which should be a combination of the three levels of man's psychi, in balance.

Socrates reminds me of Solomon's lament.

Neuroticism, to be more specific.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Neuroticism, to be more specific.

Exactly! Ecclesiastes...

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Nick A

Before thinking of changing a person's essence, you would first learn how to distinguish it from a person's personality. How would you do it?

I should have left out the word 'essence', since it is extraneous to my statement. SG was saying that a biological change to humanity might just be exchanging one form of slavery for another, so I was responding to that. My statement (minus the word 'Essence') was "if we changed humanity, we'd completely redefine the perception of slavery."

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

What is being described above is a dysfunctional human being. It is a disconnect between the Super Ego, the Ego and the Id.

In a perfect world, the personality should mirror the essence, which should be a combination of the three levels of man's psychi, in balance.

Socrates reminds me of Solomon's lament.

We are dysfunctional creatures. It is the fallen human condition. But since we are the same in this dysfunctional capacity, it appears normal.

Freud's conception of the ego is the corrupt ego. The id is conditioned by it so cannot grow as it should and this superego whch contains partial truths becomes an influence leading only to the hypocrisy of external morality instead of access to inner morality.

Some people can admit to being the wretched man which offers them the opportunity to outgrow this madness. Most continue to accept obvious absurdity as normal and continue to argue over facets of this absurdity.

For the outer and inner man to be "one" requires a quality of ego our dysfunctional nature is incapable of so everything continues as it does.