Why don't Christians worship as Jews do?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

We are dysfunctional creatures. It is the fallen human condition. But since we are the same in this dysfunctional capacity, it appears normal.

Freud's conception of the ego is the corrupt ego. The id is conditioned by it so cannot grow as it should and this superego whch contains partial truths becomes an influence leading only to the hypocrisy of external morality instead of access to inner morality.

Some people can admit to being the wretched man which offers them the opportunity to outgrow this madness. Most continue to accept obvious absurdity as normal and continue to argue over facets of this absurdity.

For the outer and inner man to be "one" requires a quality of ego our dysfunctional nature is incapable of so everything continues as it does.

Again, you throw "we"around, as if it is all encompassing (which it is not by any stretch of the matter). Freud is dead, and in a generation or so his thoughts will be gone as well.

So, what is left? two thousand year old words from some carpenter, who's thoughts have shaken this world...to this day.

And did he or did he not? well to me he does every day...
.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Again, you throw "we"around, as if it is all encompassing (which it is not by any stretch of the matter). Freud is dead, and in a generation or so his thoughts will be gone as well.

So, what is left? two thousand year old words from some carpenter, who's thoughts have shaken this world...to this day.

And did he or did he not? well to me he does every day...
.

Romans 7

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

This is my situation as well. I am the wretched man. If you aren't, you're a better man then I am. I've been around human hypocrisy long enough to know that it is this way with the majority. Like it or not it is a dysfunctional condition I am willing to admit exists within me.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

This is my situation as well. I am the wretched man. If you aren't, you're a better man then I am. I've been around human hypocrisy long enough to know that it is this way with the majority. Like it or not it is a dysfunctional condition I am willing to admit exists within me.

And I have seen the desperation the clearest truth in those dying, it was there, in people's eyes...and I have seen God, in their eyes...and I wasn't going to lose that for them, or for God.

Little ole me can make a difference? So can you...

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

We are dysfunctional creatures. It is the fallen human condition. But since we are the same in this dysfunctional capacity, it appears normal.

We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Freud's conception of the ego is the corrupt ego. The id is conditioned by it so cannot grow as it should and this superego whch contains partial truths becomes an influence leading only to the hypocrisy of external morality instead of access to inner morality.

Some people can admit to being the wretched man which offers them the opportunity to outgrow this madness. Most continue to accept obvious absurdity as normal and continue to argue over facets of this absurdity.

For the outer and inner man to be "one" requires a quality of ego our dysfunctional nature is incapable of so everything continues as it does.

Actually your description of "secular neurosis" more closely fits Jung's theories than Freud's: note the part highlighted in blue below:

"Neurosis" results from a disharmony between the individual's consciousness and the greater archetypal world. The aim of psychotherapy is to assist the individual in reestablishing a healthy relationship to the unconscious (neither being swamped by it — a state characteristic of psychosis — nor completely shut off from it — a state that results in malaise, empty consumerism, narcissism, and a life cut off from deeper meaning). The encounter between consciousness and the symbols arising from the unconscious enriches life and promotes psychological development. Jung considered this process of psychological growth and maturation (which he called the process of individuation) to be of critical importance to the human being, and ultimately to modern society.
-source-

You might also want to compare the concept of individuation.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Actually your description of "secular neurosis" more closely fits Jung's theories than Freud's: note the part highlighted in blue below:
You might also want to compare the concept of individuation.

I know what you mean. My path is real psychology or the study of "being" rather then modern psychology which is behaviorism. At one time philosophy and psychology were united but modern psychology has divided them. My path is all about creating individuals. Unfortunately, modern psychology defines the quality of an individual by behaviorism in relation to societal dictates yet the real individuals will always be strung up, nailed to crosses, and whatever other delights we can think of to support our imagination. It is necessary to preserve and justify our dysfunction.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

I know what you mean. My path is real psychology or the study of "being" rather then modern psychology which is behaviorism. At one time philosophy and psychology were united but modern psychology has divided them. My path is all about creating individuals. Unfortunately, modern psychology defines the quality of an individual by behaviorism in relation to societal dictates yet the real individuals will always be strung up, nailed to crosses, and whatever other delights we can think of to support our imagination. It is necessary to preserve and justify our dysfunction.

Yep. *nods*
Christians were supposed to give up scapegoating.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Yep. *nods*
Scapegoating.

This is one reason I have so much admiration for Simone Weil. In college, though one of its brightest students, they had difficulty with her search for individuality.

"We shall send the Red Virgin as far away as possible so that we shall never hear of her again" Director of Career Placement, Ecole Normale Supérieure

Yet to those like Albert Camus who appreciated the search and what it can reveal both for the individual and for society, they have the highest regard for this courage to "annoy the great Beast."

"Simone Weil, I still know this now, is the only great mind of our times and I hope that those who realize this have enough modesty to not try to appropriate her overwhelming witnessing.
For my part, I would be satisfied if one could say that in my place, with the humble means at my disposal, I served to make known and disseminate her work whose full impact we have yet to measure."

How is it that one young woman is able to struggle to discover what most "normal" men are incapable of and frown upon? As a man I find it a disgrace but the bottom line is that we sorely need the influence of these individuals regardless of whether they are men or women and how they are scorned by "normal" people.

[BlaznFattyz]

As Christianity from the disciples fell on other cultures, jewish traditions are lost while others are picked up. Christians are not sanctified by laws, but are sanctified by our Lord Jesus Christ.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

Christians are not sanctified by laws, but are sanctified by our Lord Jesus Christ.

I've heard this before Blazn, I've even mindlessly said the words before...but what does this mean? What is the practical application? What are the implications where the rubber meets the road?

Does it mean Christians can live life in defiance (carefully chosen word) of the Ten Commandments (the Law) and by holding on to Jesus' shirttail and by speaking his name they get a free pass into heaven?

I'm not really trying to be argumentative here, I'm just asking of you some of the same questions that occurred to me over time as I read the Bible for myself. I always had a hard time reconciling how Jesus could say "I am not come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill it" when others were telling me that Christians are no longer under the Law. Seems to me if Jesus was not under the Law, there was nothing to fulfill, which would make him a bit less than fully truthful... Quite the quandary, that.

[BlaznFattyz]

Jesus was under the law, yet unlike Him, we can attempt, but not completely follow the perfect laws of of a holy God which he fulfilled with his life and work on the cross. We cannot nor were we meant to, but to show us that we need salvation, a sacrifice that God is not tired of, but that which pleases Him for all time. It is thru Christ, the lamb of God, that we find this salvation and we understand God's love thru his grace by the sacrifice of His Son, because he loved us first even though were were sinners; yet, we choose to love him back, worshiping Him and asking the Spirit to dwell within us all of which causes His spiritual laws to be written in our hearts and that is what we follow--Loving God first and foremost from which all things spring as living water. Even though in our attempts we fail, God has already provided the lamb, and we are to sincerely ask for forgiveness in His Son's name. The sincerity and the love of God is between you and God, and the amount of forgiveness is not anyones to judge, but God's alone, as only He knows the heart of man and we through humbleness, seeking His word for understanding, and realizing that His ways are not our ways, one might come to the realization that we cannot come to God and say we stand before you holy on our own account, but we come to you sanctified by the blood of Christ because without you we can accomplish nothing. The Lord will exhalt those who humble themselves, and he will humble those that exhalt themselves.

[juantoo3]

That's all well and good, but it is evading my question.

Maybe if I ask more directly: Can a Christian be a murderer, with impugnity, simply by asking forgiveness and calling "on the name of" Jesus? Is a Christian above the Law as spelled out in the Ten Commandments?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

That's all well and good, but it is evading my question.

Maybe if I ask more directly: Can a Christian be a murderer, with impugnity, simply by asking forgiveness and calling "on the name of" Jesus? Is a Christian above the Law as spelled out in the Ten Commandments?

We only have two laws to follow Juan:

Love God, with all our might, our strength, our heart

Love our neighbor as ourself

Keep these two laws, and we keep all ten commandments.

Forgiveness from God is one thing. Justice where justice is deserved is another.

Even Joshua forgave those he put to death...

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

We only have two laws to follow Juan:

Love God, with all our might, our strength, our heart

Love our neighbor as ourself

Keep these two laws, and we keep all ten commandments.

Forgiveness from God is one thing. Justice where justice is deserved is another.

Even Joshua forgave those he put to death...

I agree Q, but that is not the way I typically hear it. I have even heard one "professing" Christian as much as tell me to my face that Christians *could* get away with murder. So the teaching does get twisted quite grievously, especially if the words are not carefully (and prayerfully) considered as to what is really meant rather than what is mindlessly said.

That's all I was trying to get Blazn to do...really think about what the implications were for what he was advocating.

I see he bailed on me without responding, too.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I agree Q, but that is not the way I typically hear it. I have even heard one "professing" Christian as much as tell me to my face that Christians *could* get away with murder. So the teaching does get twisted quite grievously, especially if the words are not carefully (and prayerfully) considered as to what is really meant rather than what is mindlessly said.

That's all I was trying to get Blazn to do...really think about what the implications were for what he was advocating.

I see he bailed on me without responding, too.

Tell you what. You and I go back to school and get our law degrees. You pass the Florida Bar, and I'll pass the Maryland Bar for starters...then we create an interstate law firm (providing we pass every other state's Bar). Then we can kick some serious ass...lol

Hey, it could work!

Seriously, what part of "thou shall not commit murder", does your "Christian associate" NOT understand?

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

We only have two laws to follow Juan:

Love God, with all our might, our strength, our heart

Love our neighbor as ourself

Keep these two laws, and we keep all ten commandments.

Forgiveness from God is one thing. Justice where justice is deserved is another.

Even Joshua forgave those he put to death...

Simone expresses the same idea but reveals we are incapable of it as the wretched man so the ability to love is only a potential that the person interested in Christianity must be humble enough to admit and strive to actualize this potential that the heart is attracted to:

"The combination of these two facts – the longing in the depth of the heart for absolute good, and the power, though only latent, of directing attention and love to a reality beyond the world and of receiving good from it – constitutes a link which attaches every man without exception to that other reality. Whoever recognizes that reality recognizes that link. Because of it, he holds every human being without any exception as something sacred to which he is bound to show respect. This is the only possible motive for universal respect towards all human beings." Simone Weil

“Draft for A Statement of Human Obligations” SIMONE WEIL, AN ANTHOLOGY ed. Sian Miles

Where the law is concerned with what we DO, Christianity is concerned with what we ARE. It is concerned with the psychological quality of the inner man. Murder in the heart does not always result in physical murder but as long as murder in the heart exists within us, we are simply attached to negative emotions and are more a thing than a Christian. It is the light of grace that helps to expose inner deception and cleanse the heart of the power of negative emotion.

The initial value of the law is that when practiced would lead to conscious verification of the "good." Many advocates of secular Judaism became too corrupt for it so Christianity introduced acquiring consciousness that would lead to the good. The good sense of the law would be understood in ones being through consciousness so suppression and hypocrisy normal for knowledge without understanding would be unnecessary.

Unfortunately Christendom forgets about the inner man and believes that somehow saying the name of Jesus forgives what we do forgetting that the purpose of Christianity is to cleanse the inner man.