Why don't Christians worship as Jews do? - Page 2

truthseeker · 03-15-2005, 04:41 PM

Thank you so much for your reply, Basstian.

You give such clear Bible references. It's good to have you around.

Basstian · 03-16-2005, 07:07 AM

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You give such clear Bible references.

All the answers are there. It takes good questions to bring them out.

Thanks to you also for asking a good one

NewAgeNerd · 03-16-2005, 04:46 PM

Ahh what an interesting thread. I myself have often wondered this question, usually while observing the sabbath myself. First for some clarification. How the Jews have observed the sabbath has been kind of a mystery to non-Jews over the centuries, and hopefully I can clarify.

The observance of the sabbath is the 4th of the ten commandments, it is thus an incredibly important commandment and one that a torah observing Jew would do everything to keep. The only good excuse for breaking the sabbath is to save someones life, everything else is just rationalization.

In addition, the sabbath is called the day of rest, yet an observant Jew will paradoxically refuse to drive a vehicle on this day. The reason is, when G-d told us to keep the sabbath, he did not reveal in the Torah what entirely that entailed. It was left to Moses to explain the details of keeping the sabbath, and has since been a part of Jewish Oral Law.

In a nutshell, when G-d created the universe he rested on the 7th day. What all does this mean? Afterall an infinite creator never needs to rest. Essentially, on the 6 normal days of the week, G-d created various physical things, and on the 7th day of creation, G-d created rest and defined rest as the act of leaving the world to be as it is. Likewise, on the 7th day of the week an observant Jew will cease all interactions with the world and let it run as it has been designed to run. This is still a pretty vague definition, so to get the details of the sabbath we have to move forward in time to the exodus.

After the Jews left egypt, they needed a place to worship G-d. As a result the built the tabernacle. The construction of the tabernacle is believed, by Jews, to be a microcosm of creation. On every 7th day while the were building the tabernacle, the Jews had to rest which in essence means that on the sabbath they could make no progress towards the completion of the tabernacle. There are 39 things that the Jews had to do to make progress in the construction of the tabernacle, and these 39 things are the things that Jews obstain from doing on the sabbath. If anyone wants, I can give a list of all 39.

To summarize, on 6 days of the week, the Jew impacts and affects the world around him. On the 7th day, in honor of the day where G-d himself chose to let creation run its course, a Jew lets the world be.

One additional point, many people wonder how the Jew's knew that saturday was the sabbath. This also dates back to the exodus. On the 7th day of every week, while the Jews were wondering the desert, G-d provided a double serving of Manna on the 6th day and no manna at all on the 7th day. This was to prevent the Jews from breaking the sabbath. It has been this day which the sabbath is held on up until the present.

The things that we do on the Sabbath are study and pray. In addition we worship, honor, and contemplate G-d's magnificence. It is an interesting sidenote that a person who studies 6 days of the week, is actually forbidden to study on the Sabbath as studying is their job and they must refrain from doing it.

Quahom1 · 03-16-2005, 05:49 PM

Thank you Newage, That was excellent!

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Q

Basstian · 03-16-2005, 06:30 PM

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On the 7th day, in honor of the day where G-d himself chose to let creation run its course, a Jew lets the world be.

That is just awesome I feel incredibly blessed to have read this post.
In my day to day struggle to balance the world on my shoulders keep all the bills paid keep the wife kids and everybody else in my world happy and provided for. I get tired I get weak and I get frustrated.

God really wants me to take this time this one little day just like He did and just let the world be.

It seems to me a Father commanded His children to do something for their own good.

to that I say yes Father.

Thank you NewAgeNerd very much

truthseeker · 03-16-2005, 06:41 PM

Wow. That is awesome. 1 day to let the world just be. Sounds like peace to me. Thank you NewAgeNerd for providing that information. It certainly doesn't sound so bad to observe the Sabbath. If you can, could you please provide us with the list of 39 things that Jews obstain from doing on the Sabbath?

Quahom1 · 03-16-2005, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewAgeNerd

One additional point, many people wonder how the Jew's knew that saturday was the sabbath. This also dates back to the exodus. On the 7th day of every week, while the Jews were wondering the desert, G-d provided a double serving of Manna on the 6th day and no manna at all on the 7th day. This was to prevent the Jews from breaking the sabbath. It has been this day which the sabbath is held on up until the present...

You know, I remember the nuns telling us over and over again about Manna feeding the people, and their being warned to gather it all on the sixth day, becuase there would be none on the seventh. But I thought that was a mistake, becuase I also knew Manna only lasted one day...so I figured God just didn't want trash left around or He wanted them to stuff themselves in order to survive the forced fast they would have to endure...

Now I realize that that was the second miracle of Manna. It would last for two days instead of spoiling after one!

It is a delight to discover something new, from such an old story...

And yes, please tell us of the 39 tasks that were required in making the tabernacle!

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Basstian · 03-17-2005, 05:01 AM

Another great sabbath story is the return of Gods people to Israel and the rebuilding by Nehemiah. As I read this book I had to ask myself why this one comandment kind of took the spotlight.

One of the biggest things I notice is the lack of the death sentence for sabbath breakers at this point. Nehemiah's threat was to "Lay hands on them" for camping outside the city tryin to sell on the sabbath. This is interesting to me because of all the "SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH" we see in pentateuch.

There seems to have been some sort of transformation to a less violent or at least more forgiving set of judicial statutes. I wonder if this influence might have come from Babylon and their justice system or the like?

NewAgeNerd · 03-17-2005, 08:04 PM

Okay, I was getting ready to summarize, and then I found this:

http://www.ou.org/publications/kaplan/shabbat/default.htm

I STRONGLY encourage anyone who is at all curious about shabbat to read through this entire book. The 39 melachot are the actual 39 prohibitions. Anyway, let me know your thoughts.

Quahom1 · 03-17-2005, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewAgeNerd

Okay, I was getting ready to summarize, and then I found this:

http://www.ou.org/publications/kaplan/shabbat/default.htm

I STRONGLY encourage anyone who is at all curious about shabbat to read through this entire book. The 39 melachot are the actual 39 prohibitions. Anyway, let me know your thoughts.

Thank you ! By the way, Michigan?...

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Q

NewAgeNerd · 03-18-2005, 03:07 AM

heh yea, sometimes I forget that Ann Arbor isn't the center of the universe. Michigan it is.

Quahom1 · 03-18-2005, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewAgeNerd

heh yea, sometimes I forget that Ann Arbor isn't the center of the universe. Michigan it is.

Happiness, is crushed Buckeye Nuts...

M Go BLUE!

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Q

Basstian · 03-18-2005, 06:18 AM

Thanks NewageNerd, I read the 39 melachot.

It was a very educational. I see a very strict and devout set of statutes. Which if a man kept He would indeed enjoy rest. Now my question is what steps do you take if you do break the sabbath? I mean who doesnt use electric or a fuel source to heat.

For the Christian sabbath keeper we have a "The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath." It allows us to change the statutes using righteous judgement according to needs and the situation. While this I assume would not be the case in the Jewish faith. There is a freedom we have in Christ where we may indeed never get the sabbath right it will be the effort that counts and forgiveness for our sins that pardons our mistakes.

Example: I roofed for a while had a roof almost done on Friday and was expecting rain Saturday night. If not completed on the Sabbath the house would have been damaged.
My solution was I sent my crew home for the weekend so that I would not be making them work on the sabbath. I had one other sabbath keeper on the crew I told him also not to show up. I was planning to finish it myself would have taken me most of the day. My fellow sabbath keeper showed up anyway we finished in just about 4 hours and both gave the percentage of wages for that day as an offering to a homeless shelter.
I wasnt ever caught like that again roofing careful planning I roofed for 3 more years without working on the sabbath. Old man told me if your Ox keeps getting in the ditch on sabbath butcher it and get another Ox.

But many times as a security system tech I was called to shutoff alarm systems on the sabbath or quick repairs.

NewAgeNerd · 03-18-2005, 03:15 PM

I should have clarified this earlier. Reading all the Sabbath rules on paper does indeed make it seem impossible. However, its a bit like reading the rules for a complex boardgame. The Sabbath is something that has to be experienced to be understood. It is really not difficult at all, if you take the right preperations. You see, you are allowed to enjoy heat and lights, you are just not allowed to change their states. So if you set your thermostat before Sabbath, you just do not adjust it over the Sabbath. Likewise with lights, you leave the ones you want to use over the Sabbath on. Even warm food can be enjoyed if it is prepared correctly, and if you leave your stove on throughout the Sabbath. As long as you are not interfering with them, everything is kosher.

There are no longer any real penalties for breaking the Sabbath. When I first started keeping it, I would accidently flip a light or what have you. So if I break the Sabbath, I merely have to ask G-d for forgiveness. In the Jewish religion, there are no intermediaries between you and G-d so if I need to repent for something, I ask G-d directly.

The bottom line is keeping the Sabbath takes some meticulous planning. You have to make sure that everything you need to do by the time the sun goes down on friday IS done. Sometimes it can be a little hectic. However, when you see the sun dip below the horizon and you know that you are now powerless to affect the world, and that for the next 25 hours its just you and G-d, it is a truly indescribeably wonderful feeling.

bananabrain · 03-18-2005, 04:17 PM

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Psalms is the first place we see the word synagogue used but refers to them in a plural form.

Ps 74:8 They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land.

ahem: it doesn't say "synagogues". synagogue is a greek word, which is a translation of the hebrew phrase beit knesset (lit: house of assembly). the hebrew in that verse is moa'adey-El which can be literally translated as "meeting-places of G!D". that doesn't really mean synagogue, but would probably refer more to the Temple and such places as the priestly centre at shiloh.

b'shalom

bananabrain