Why don't Christians worship as Jews do?

[Basstian]

ahem: it doesn't say "synagogues". synagogue is a greek word, which is a translation of the hebrew phrase beit knesset (lit: house of assembly). the hebrew in that verse is moa'adey-El which can be literally translated as "meeting-places of G!D". that doesn't really mean synagogue, but would probably refer more to the Temple and such places as the priestly centre at shiloh.

Okay thanks for the clarification they did use the greek word in the KJV I guess thinking it to be the "best" translation. but temple really fits because that seems to be the target of invaders.


The careful planning is something I understand I have never really looked at any written do dont do laws. But just used good judgement to guide me. things like no shopping, fill up the gas tank on friday, these kind of things I prepare before hand so that I can enjoy the sabbath. I dont claim to ever have once succeeded in the letter of the Law but I do have a good idea of the spirit of the Law and the blessing that come from obedience.

[Basstian]

Here is a site with a little history on the change from Sabbath to Sunday worship for the church.

http://www.nisbett.com/sabbath/sunday_history.htm

Looks well put together interesting read but I would like to verify the writings ref'd in it.

[bananabrain]

For the Christian sabbath keeper we have a "The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath." It allows us to change the statutes using righteous judgement according to needs and the situation.

yeah - like NaN says and as you can see, we are less likely to use our own judgement to reason from first principles considering that it would be unlikely that a particular situation has not already been discussed. instead, it would be more likely that you would consult a relevant authority (your rabbi, or a book of shabbat halachot of which there are no shortages) but it would always be preferable to know enough yourself not to have to do so.

it's an interesting quote, basstian, but whilst it might apply to "man" as a whole, the observance of the shabbat prohibitions is only obligatory for jews - although it is of course extremely praiseworthy for non-jews to observe them as well. there is a tradition that the "world was only created for the sake of the Torah" and, by extension, the jewish people came to be in order that G!D's commandments might be observed. i do get what jesus was on about when he said that and it's a good point - but it is more applicable to the concept of a "fool within the Law" - this would be someone who is meticulous in their observance without paying attention to the spirit thereof. but then again, there is another principle that says "even if you don't do it for the right reasons, you'll end up doing it for the right reasons eventually" - religious behaviourism is a bit like that. basically it's very complicated!

i will confine myself to imagining the implications for the environment and global warming if people stopped using their cars one day a week, particularly at the weekend. personally, it has cut my car use by about 42% given that i go to work on public transport.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Basstian]

the observance of the shabbat prohibitions is only obligatory for jews - although it is of course extremely praiseworthy for non-jews to observe them as well.

I respectfully disagree I completely understand why you would feel this about the sabbath. But the Law I feel is obligatory for anyone believing in God.
I personally feel a Christian should hold the Torah in one hand and the Bible in the other. That is a powerful statement that differs from beliefs most of my faith are taught from a child.
We recieved a spirit of adoption according to our bible that brings us into Abrahams promise and in that brings us also to the law handed to Israel.
I say this not to offend anyone of any faith But we as Christians will be the first to Quote "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and also the first to say "we are no longer under the law" when the law imposes on our way of life. But this will be a personal choice and even if Christianity taught observation of the Law it would be the individual that keeps them.

I was very impressed by the way NewAge presented the Law of the sabbath. I for one was not offened when I read according to the 39 things not allowed how far I was from keeping it. It made me consider if I am as devout as I should be and examine my use of time and how it aligns with Gods word.

I am sure Bananabrain you will agree that statutes are different from what we as Christians call the 10 commandments. Stautes allow us to go from a sabbath days journey on foot to not driving an automobile on the sabbath. They (statutes) change but the law doesn't it is the foundation statutes an ordinances are built on. Nor could the Law change according to the Bible or I would assume the Torah.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Basstian

I personally feel a Christian should hold the Torah in one hand and the Bible in the other. That is a powerful statement that differs from beliefs most of my faith are taught from a child.
We recieved a spirit of adoption according to our bible that brings us into Abrahams promise and in that brings us also to the law handed to Israel.
I say this not to offend anyone of any faith But we as Christians will be the first to Quote "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and also the first to say "we are no longer under the law" when the law imposes on our way of life. But this will be a personal choice and even if Christianity taught observation of the Law it would be the individual that keeps them.

I was very impressed by the way NewAge presented the Law of the sabbath. I for one was not offened when I read according to the 39 things not allowed how far I was from keeping it. It made me consider if I am as devout as I should be and examine my use of time and how it aligns with Gods word.

Interesting thought here. In catholic school, we had several students of Jewish faith who attended. One of the requirements (in the early 60s and 70s) was that all students take religion class (which of course was dominated by catholicism). However, these students suggested that both the Jewish faith and Catholic doctrine be discussed, and the class be called theology class (which has stuck to this day). Their reasoning was, why not learn about the root faith that Christians sprang from...and our rather progressive nun and brother (for the time), agreed. So for two years we learned about both (6th and 7th grade). Of course that is not much time at all, but it was a start.

Personally, I like the idea. I should also point out that messianics do just that (figuratively speaking).

v/r

Q

[truthseeker]

I will humble myself to say that Jews lead by example. Jesus was not Christian, he was a Jew. That is why these questions are so important to me. I can't imagine that I can go back into the womb and come out a Jew, so I must stand as I am and recognize that God is not only the God of the Jews, but He is the God of living creation whether we recognize it or not. He laid out a set of rules of how humankind should live and gave it to Moses. The information was written down and now it is part of the best selling book in the world.

The rules have some good points though. The thing about not eating fish that doesn't have scales on it (if I understand it correctly) - and it would just so happen that shrimp and lobsters and crawfish and things of that sort can contribute to high blood pressure. How there are specific directions on how to kill the animal for consumption - do we hear about kosher meat having e-coli and other diseases (or maybe the news just doesn't give that any coverage...).

I did the best I could to follow the rules of shabbat () keeping this past shabbat and though I fell short probably more than I realize, the effect has been tremendous. Just 24 hours of letting the world be as it is and giving the glory to God has made my work week the most productive than it has been in a while. My overall morale has boosted. And like you said, BananaBrain,

but then again there is another principle that says "even if you don't do it for the right reasons, you'll end up doing it for the right reasons eventually" - religious behaviourism is a bit like that.

Anyway, I don't want to pump anyone up or break anyone down. But the evidence is there and I don't want to be a fool. While we are following God's rules, the implications seem to be on the up and up for mankind's well being. Be it Jew, Gentile, or Ragamuffin.

[dauer]

I've don't think I've heard of the Ragamuffins. Are they the ones who call God "The Baker" and call man the "crumbling cookie?" Yes, that sounds right. They're influenced by Hinduism and spend much of their time in contemplation on the One Who Will Devour while listening to tonal music. Don't they believe that Adam was made of flour, water, a pinch of salt, and an active rising agent?

Dauer

[truthseeker]

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dauer

I've don't think I've heard of the Ragamuffins. Are they the ones who call God "The Baker" and call man the "crumbling cookie?" Yes, that sounds right. They're influenced by Hinduism and spend much of their time in contemplation on the One Who Will Devour while listening to tonal music. Don't they believe that Adam was made of flour, water, a pinch of salt, and an active rising agent?

Dauer

Naww, it's what my mother and grandma called us becuase we couldn't stay neat and clean for more than 30 seconds, even on Sunday...

v/r

Q

[InChristAlways]

For the Christian sabbath keeper we have a "The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath." It allows us to change the statutes using righteous judgement according to needs and the situation. While this I assume would not be the case in the Jewish faith. There is a freedom we have in Christ where we may indeed never get the sabbath right it will be the effort that counts and forgiveness for our sins that pardons our mistakes.

I will humble myself to say that Jews lead by example. Jesus was not Christian, he was a Jew. That is why these questions are so important to me. I can't imagine that I can go back into the womb and come out a Jew, so I must stand as I am and recognize that God is not only the God of the Jews, but He is the God of living creation whether we recognize it or not. He laid out a set of rules of how humankind should live and gave it to Moses. The information was written down and now it is part of the best selling book in the world.

And with Christ being a Jew, He was also deemed the One to bring the New Covenant of Life out of "Bondage" to Israel and Judah.

Jeremiah 31:31 " Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 "But this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Isaiah 65:17 " For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former [Mt Sinai?] shall not be remembered or come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create "New" Jerusalem [as] a rejoicing, And her people a joy.

Perhaps Christ-ians have a different view of the heaven and earth/Spirit and Truth, than the jews do. Let us look for an example on what God promised concerning a "New Covenant". Paul himself describes the "2 covenants" and Paul was a Hebrew of Hebrews of the Tribe of Benjamin.

Gala 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two Covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar -- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Jesus also said until heaven and earth pass away, not one JOT or TITLE would pass from THE LAW untill was fulfilled so messianics do feel they are under the same "old" covenant Israel was/is under.

A passage which I find to be so interesting in this regard heaven and earth is Isaiah51:15,16. "But I am the Lord thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The Lord of hosts is his name. And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people." Upon taking a closer look at the things God tells Israel that He had done for them.

(1) He says that He had, "divided the sea,[the same word used in Zech 14:4 splitting of the Mount] whose waves roared." i.e., He had delivered them from Egyptian Bondage, dividing the Red Sea that they might cross over on dry land to safety!

(2) "I have put My words in thy mouth." i.e., to Israel was given the very oracles of God. They had received the Law through Moses on Mt. Sinai which was to act as their schoolmaster which was to ultimately bring them to their Messiah.

(3) "I have covered thee with the shadow of Mine hand." Yes, God had so graciously taken Israel under His hand, protecting them from their enemies, while at the same time, extending His providential care to suit all their needs.

(4) "I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people." Yes God had so graciously created a Covenant with Israel and they were his creation and people.

Now, in light of all the marvelous things that we have just seen that God did for Israel, look very closely now in vs. 16 and see just what these things constituted: This is very important, for this second half of that verse helps us to clearly understand all that is said before it! God said He did all those things, "that I may PLANT THE HEAVENS, and LAY THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

It appears to say here that the Lord is not alluding to the Genesis account of His creation of the physical "heavens and earth" back at the beginning.

The "heavens and earth" that are spoken of here were created AFTER God led them out of bondage and through the sea. That's what this text clearly says! God did not literally plant the heavens and lay the foundations of the eath at this late date of writing. This appears to be symbolical.

Once again, it is common for the reader unfamiliar with the apocalyptic imagery of the Old Testament/Tanach to take these words as literal events associated with the cosmic conflagration.

In Isaiah 51:5-6 God predicted the destruction of "heaven and earth." Verses 15-16 defines that "heaven and earth" as the world created when God gave Israel the law at Sinai. In contrast to that world that would be destroyed, God's new world would stand forever, vs. 6. GOD CREATED ISRAEL'S HEAVEN AND EARTH AT SINAI, BUT HE WOULD DESTROY THAT "WORLD" TO MAKE WAY FOR THE NEW CREATION OF CHRIST!

Isaiah predicted this in chapter 65: God would destroy "Israel/Judah", create a new people with a new name, the Israel of God, and give them a new heaven and new earth, vs. 7ff. THESE appeart to be COVENANT WORLDS NOT PHYSICAL WORLDS!

Jesus does not change subjects when He assures the disciples that "heaven and earth will pass away."

This is what Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 when he predicted the fall of Jerusalem: "heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall never pass away" vs. 35. Hebrews 12 speaks of the passing of the heaven and earth, established at Sinai, and the deliverance of the unshakable kingdom of God, the church, 12:21-28. Revelation speaks of the new heaven and earth that would come when the city "where our Lord was crucified" was destroyed, 11:8; 21:1f. The Bible does not speak of the end of time. It speaks instead of the end of the Old Covenant Age of Israel and the full establishment of the New Covenant "heaven and earth" of Christ--his "church?.

"Heaven and earth passing away," understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system of the universe; and the period when that is to take place, is called the "end of the world." But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens.

How my next question to you is were is your proof that THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE HEAVEN AND EARTH, in Isaiah 51:15,16 are literal? In other words where in the Bible does it say God creation two FOUNDATIONS OF THE LITERAL HEAVEN AND EARTH, literally.

[Quahom1]

Remember the song "A little Less Talk and alot more Action" ? We here at CR are looking for more dialogue than pasting of other works (including biblical). Granted referencing scripture is fine, however, personal thought on the issue is devine, and the more personal thought, the better!!!


v/r

Q

[InChristAlways]

quote Truth Seeker: For the Christian sabbath keeper we have a "The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath." It allows us to change the statutes using righteous judgement according to needs and the situation. While this I assume would not be the case in the Jewish faith. There is a freedom we have in Christ where we may indeed never get the sabbath right it will be the effort that counts and forgiveness for our sins that pardons our mistakes.

I will humble myself to say that Jews lead by example. Jesus was not Christian, he was a Jew. That is why these questions are so important to me. I can't imagine that I can go back into the womb and come out a Jew, so I must stand as I am and recognize that God is not only the God of the Jews, but He is the God of living creation whether we recognize it or not. He laid out a set of rules of how humankind should live and gave it to Moses. The information was written down and now it is part of the best selling book in the world.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

To ICA: Remember the song "A little Less Talk and alot more Action" ? We here at CR are looking for more dialogue than pasting of other works (including biblical). Granted referencing scripture is fine, however, personal thought on the issue is devine, and the more personal thought, the better!!!
v/r
Q

Hi Q.Simply put, my humble thoughts are that OC judaism does not believe Christ brought the New Covenant of Life and Truth and that is why we worship differently than they do.

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this [is] the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Matt 26:27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 "For this is My blood of the new Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

My thoughts are that OC judaism today use the Talmud and jewish sages to interpret how they are to worship and give glory to God, [Islam uses the Koran],while Christians use the NT, including Paul on how to give glory to God through the Words of Jesus the Christ.

We are to continuously search the scriptures for the Truth and I suppose that is why I use scripture and why my Faith in Jesus and His words are so strong.
Steve

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal/age abiding life; and these are they which testify of Me.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in Truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the Truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InChristAlways

Hi Q.Simply put, my humble thoughts are that OC judaism does not believe Christ brought the New Covenant of Life and Truth and that is why we worship differently than they do.

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this [is] the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Matt 26:27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 "For this is My blood of the new Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

My thoughts are that OC judaism today use the Talmud and jewish sages to interpret how they are to worship and give glory to God, [Islam uses the Koran],while Christians use the NT, including Paul on how to give glory to God through the Words of Jesus the Christ.

We are to continuously search the scriptures for the Truth and I suppose that is why I use scripture and why my Faith in Jesus and His words are so strong.
Steve

Quite true. That is why they are still waiting for the Messiah.

v/r

Q

[chokmah]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Why is it that Christians don't worship as Jews do?

I think that in Jesus' message he was trying to bring God's chosen back unto him. He said that he did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. So why do Christians feel like we don't have to worship on the Sabbath day? And why do we use the Old Testament when we need to make reference to the 'words in red' but we feel like we don't really have to follow anything but the ten commandments, when Jesus himself was a Jew?

Is this thread only for Christians to answer or are you looking for other groups' insights?

[InChristAlways]

Originally Posted by chokmah

Is this thread only for Christians to answer or are you looking for other groups' insights?

I see no problem with it.