Why God Permits Suffering to Humankind - Page 2

Quahom1 · 06-08-2005, 11:57 PM

To be sinless...isn't that the same as being in perfect harmony with God? Logically then the antithesis of this would be to sin, or become out of balance with God. Evil is committing sin, regardless of how small a sin is, therefore evil is the manifestation of being out of balance with God, perhaps in some cases, to an extreme.

Lucifer and the fallen, are eternally out of balance with God, with no hope for redemption. Man on the other hand has hope for redemption and coming into balance with God, therefore shaking the bonds of evil.

I agree (or am also of the opinion) that much of the natural problems on earth are the cause of Man being out of balance with God (I read once that 90 percent of the disasters on earth are caused by Man).

Reminds me of an engine which the timing is off. It will run, but it is rough running, and eventually the engine will fail prematurely if the timing is not balanced with the firing of the pistons. Same thing can be said of an electric motor that is being fed electricity out of phase. Sooner than later, the brushes and windings will wear and short causing total failure.

Something to ponder...

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tommy · 06-09-2005, 04:18 PM

More provoking detail thoughts added here, thanks for putting the time into your addition to this essay Path to One. Yes, much of todays suffering is blame of humankind, non-spiritual. For example, a female gets pregnant. She has an idol of smoking. Baby is born deformed. Baby grows up to an adult and says, Why did God do this to me and allow me to suffer. The suffering was brought about by an act of a human who could not repent of their idol. Another example, two brothers grow up together, now they are young adult men. One brother stays in ABC country and the other moves to XYZ country. Then, the greedy leader of XYZ country says we must go to war with ABC country and all citizins must be involved to defend their nation. First brother then is obligated to pull out his sword on the battleline and attack the second brother. Even though these two brothers loved each other, nation said they had to either do that or suffer in jail. The point is if the brother is injured by his brother, nation caused this suffering. Therefore Path to One makes a good point that not all suffering is from the devil, but also from humankind, nation and greedy leaders. However, Adam and Eve did not have to fear animals in the Garden of Eden, it was a perfect paradise. It did not matter if they wore clothes, they didn't notice they were naked until learning the difference between good and evil. What then changed this? Humans often bear the responsibility for harm done. Those who violate Godly standards often do experience bad effects (Gal. 6:7) God is not causing the earthquakes, floods and droughts today, to a large extent these are caused by natural forces. Even when ample warning is given people often refuse to get out of a danger area or fail to take ample precations Prov 22:3 compared to Matt 24:37-39. God can control weather for example when he empowered Jesus to calm a storm. Ecclesiastes 9:11 says that "time and unforeseen occurances" also have a bearing on what happens to us. For example, a car crashes through the center divide on a freeway. It is a roll of the dice who the poor soul is going to be in the oncoming car. It is because of chance that we are in the wrong place at the wrong moment in time. But even King Soloman who wrote Ecclesiates indicated that with every pleasure of life that he emassed on earth that life here was "meaningless, like chasing the wind" and pure earthly satisfaction cannot be fully achieved here on earth in the short days we have because at the end we all meet the same fate, death and perhaps suffering. Was death and suffering intented for humans in the garden of eden? Was not the garden of eden meant to be a place right here on earth, yes here on earth, for everlasting life with no pain and suffering???

path_of_one · 06-09-2005, 05:26 PM

Thanks for the response!

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Originally Posted by tommy

Therefore Path to One makes a good point that not all suffering is from the devil, but also from humankind, nation and greedy leaders.

I would actually say that some suffering is natural- and is only suffering due to our perspective. Most suffering is from the evil forces (which you personify as the Devil, but I don't), that flow through humankind, including corrupt leaders.

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However, Adam and Eve did not have to fear animals in the Garden of Eden, it was a perfect paradise. It did not matter if they wore clothes, they didn't notice they were naked until learning the difference between good and evil.

This gets tricky, because there are people who don't fear animals and don't mind being nude. There are cultures in which nudity is perfectly acceptable. It is our own society that makes the human body a symbol of lust, immodesty, imperfection, and tells us to cover up. If we transcended our sinful thoughts of lust and self-denigration (I'm too old/fat/whatever) and learned to look at the human body as an amazing gift from God, a beautiful piece of artwork, we wouldn't have the mess of worrying about nudity and covering up to protect ourselves. It's a cultural thing, not a universal thing. As for the animals- wise respectfulness is not the same as fear. I don't fear animals, but I respect them. I've been face to face with bears, for example, many times in the wild. I'm not afraid, but I respect them for what they are- bears. I don't try to go over and stick my head in their mouth, but I also don't chuck rocks at them and scream at them to go away. I just sit and watch, and sometimes (believe it or not!) have a little chat. They like me, they watch me with a bit of curiousity and then eventually amble away. Folks have lived up close and personal with wolves, with big cats, with snakes. You learn to respect a creature for what it is- to learn its habits and fears and preferences- and then to respectfully get along with it, just as you would a person. Yes, just as humans can be dangerous, so can animals if you provoke them. But mostly if you understand their behavior, you need not fear. Communicating this way with animals, especially in the wild, is an amazing thing. I daresay it gives me fleeting glimpses into what the Garden of Eden was like, before humans trashed the planet, hunted the animals, and caused them to fear and loathe us. But they are amazingly forgiving creatures, if you only will learn from past mistakes and come to them in humility and love and peace. Animals sense these things. I truly believe it is our own fault that we have problems with animals today- and I don't mean due to original sin. It's the constant sin of our disrespect, our harmfulness, our blatant cruelty, to which they respond. By the way, they still talk (in their own way). We just have forgotten how to listen, and we don't have the patience to relearn.

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God can control weather for example when he empowered Jesus to calm a storm.

Yes, He can. But that doesn't mean He'd always want it 70 degrees and sunny. There is a reason for the weather patterns- it produces the beautiful diversity of His Creation. Note that Jesus was not perturbed by the storm, nor did He think it was a bad thing. He stopped the storm because the disciples flipped out and He used it to teach them a lesson.

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pure earthly satisfaction cannot be fully achieved here on earth in the short days we have because at the end we all meet the same fate, death and perhaps suffering. Was death and suffering intented for humans in the garden of eden? Was not the garden of eden meant to be a place right here on earth, yes here on earth, for everlasting life with no pain and suffering???

Well, it depends on what you mean by pure earthly satisfaction. I don't mind that my days here are short and I'm going to meet death. It will release me to my Creator.

I believe the Garden of Eden is a symbol for a time when humans were not separated from God and lived in harmony with all Creation. I don't believe the Garden is a literal place on earth, but rather a powerful symbol that was filtered through the cultural and historical perspective of the early Jewish people. I do believe it is a concept that is inspired by God, and I myself have had visions of what I would think of as the Garden. But in my experience, nothing really existed as actual physical manifestations. Tough to explain. Suffice it to say that in both biblical interpretation and personal intuition- I believe the Garden of Eden refers to a state of being at one with God and all Creation, not a literally paradise on earth (though the result of this state would be paradise).

tommy · 06-09-2005, 05:56 PM

More though provoking thoughts here, especially how we get along with animals. I too notice the harmony with animals as sometimes birds and even bees will not be afraid of me if I do not provoke them and appear to be in harmony with them. It is my belief however that since Adam and Eve was given an earthly paradise that was conditional, we today would not bear the grunt of proving our devotion to God. It would have already been proved. What would have it been like if Eve reminder herself that Yahweh God (note his personal name naturally which seperates him from others gods) told her not to do the one thing God told her not to do and didn't listen to the devil that told her through the serpent not to worry about it, go ahead and eat it anyway. Would life be any different today?

Quahom1 · 06-09-2005, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy

More though provoking thoughts here, especially how we get along with animals. I too notice the harmony with animals as sometimes birds and even bees will not be afraid of me if I do not provoke them and appear to be in harmony with them. It is my belief however that since Adam and Eve was given an earthly paradise that was conditional, we today would not bear the grunt of proving our devotion to God. It would have already been proved. What would have it been like if Eve reminder herself that Yahweh God (note his personal name naturally which seperates him from others gods) told her not to do the one thing God told her not to do and didn't listen to the devil that told her through the serpent not to worry about it, go ahead and eat it anyway. Would life be any different today?

I don't think we would be having this conversation...

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path_of_one · 06-09-2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy

Would life be any different today?

Yes. We wouldn't have the source of all our suffering, which is truly believing that we are separated from God. When one is embraced by God, and overcomes this separation, one's spiritual development begins and eventually suffering ceases to be. Some people reach a state of being beyond suffering here on earth, during their lifetime. Some don't, but realize it after death. It is a journey that, as you said, requires devotion.

I don't believe Eve was a literal person, but it doesn't really matter. Either way, humanity chose to follow their own desires and quest for power rather than humbling themselves and choosing God's will. And from these choices of humankind throughout our history we have the mess we're in today. I still believe each one of us has, individually, the capacity to turn toward God and devote ourselves to His will, to be embraced by God and be on the path toward alleviating suffering- our own and others'. If humanity as a whole did this, I believe it would usher in the Kingdom of God. "The Kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (alternatively translated as, "within you").

Bandit · 06-09-2005, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I don't believe Eve was a literal person, but it doesn't really matter. Either way, humanity chose to follow their own desires and quest for power rather than humbling themselves and choosing God's will.

Please be careful & considerate with things like this Path. When Jesus spoke of the blood of Abel who was a literal direct offspring of Eve, he was refering to literal blood & a literal murder.
He was not telling a parable or a myth.

When Jesus said he was before Abraham, he was literally before Abraham.

Abraham was a literal person & is tracked through the literal lineage of Jesus & the literal Jesus was literally before the literal person Abraham, because Jesus was before & is also, by & from the seed of Abraham & from the literal David, who are from the seed of Seth, who is from the seed of a literal man called Adam & it was a literal human seed.

I am sorry, but You are going to get your types & shadows mixed up by doing this, so yes it does matter.

I do love you & I know you mean no harm, but I also know what mysticism gets into & there will be conflicts if we are not careful.

tommy · 06-09-2005, 08:24 PM

Love and peace to you all and I sincerely hope I do not offend anyone by this post, I do not mean to do so because I know we have differing beliefs and that is why we came here since this is a comparative site. OK, these are all very good responses which I concur with for the most part. So now that we are somewhat in agreement that we suffer today from what occurred in the beginning of creation, the question comes up as to where to we go when we die. Read Revelation 12:7-9 about the new Heaven which I will quote, And war broke out in Heaven: Michael (is this Jesus or Michael the great prince?) and his angels battled with the dragon, and the angels battled but did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in Heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan who is misleading the entire inhabited earth, he was hurled down in the earth and his angels were hurled down with him.If the devil and Satan were hurled down from Heaven, is there a Hell because why would Satan be in Heaven? I also cannot find the word Purgatory in the Bible. I don’t believe there is a Hell. Genesis 2:7 tells us that God created Adam out of dust. Genesis 7:22 tells us that God created the force of life that is active in earthly living creatures. The force was then sustained by the breathing process. Psalms 146:4 says Adams spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground, in that day his thoughts do perish. Genesis 3:19 says for dust you are, and dust you will return. At death Adam would simply cease to exist! It is Gods purpose to rescue us from the Adamic death. God refers to the dead as being asleep. For example when Lazerus died, Jesus referred to Lazerus as going asleep and said he was going on a journey to awake him. Jesus said plainly Lazerus has died - John 11:11,14. Jesus told Martha your brother will rise. Martha said, I know he will rise in the ressurection on the last day John 11:23,24. She did not believe that Lazerus had gone to some spirit realm to continue his existence. The remedy was resurrection. Jesus also said, I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life - John 11:25. Imagine the joy of those who saw the resurrection of Jesus good friend Lazerus. So I ask here that if Lazerus had gone to a better spiritual life, then would it not have been a dis-service to Lazerus that Jesus raised him up from the sleep and more or less, returned him to the earthly world. We read the number 144,000, what does this mean? I believe it means that a limited number of men and women who did not defile themselves on earth or repented will actually be the group that rises up immediately to rule with Jesus in Heaven.As kings and priests with Jesus, they will share in the undoing of all the effects of death that mankind got from Adam. Here is some scriptures to back this up: Romans 5:12 Rev. 5:9, 10, Rev 7:4 Rev. 14:1. God will give each of these ones a spirit body so they can live in Heaven. 1Corinthians 15:35, 38, 42-45 and 1Peter 3:18. What happens then to the rest of us who exercised faith in Jesus as the Messiah? We read about the different flocks of sheep of God's chosen ones. By far the majority who have died will be resurrected to an earthly paradise. Psalm 37:11, 29 Matt 6:10. When Jesus was being tortured to death the man dying next to him who obviously was hanging there for defiling something was even promised from Jesus Luke 23:42-43 You will be with me in paradise. I know these views are my opinions from what I gather in my study of the Bible and I hope that they do not offend anyone. These are simply my opinions and I certainly do not know everything nor does any human obviously. Sorry about my previous spelling errors, I am typing in the front seat of my car in between work and submitting the data via Cell Phone. Blessings and hope of salvation to all.

path_of_one · 06-09-2005, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

Please be careful & considerate with things like this Path.

Sorry, I think I wasn't being clear. I was saying it doesn't matter to me, in my belief structure, whether Eve was a literal woman or a symbolic mother of humanity. I know it matters to lots of other people, which is OK. I wasn't trying to imply it doesn't or shouldn't matter for them. Again, I apologize for the lack of clarity.

My point was, either way, we agree the same thing happened- humans messed up and now we're dealing with the consequences of generations upon generations of folks not choosing God's will over their own desires.

Bandit · 06-09-2005, 09:02 PM

you are track with these things & my biggest suggestion is to keep the order of events in the back of your mind & leave room to expound on them & sometimes we have to shift the order of events around to makes sure we have them in the proper order.

Now, I dont think Jesus is Michael, but if you do, then you should be allowed to believe that.
I do believe there is a hell, because Jesus said he has the keys to hell death & the grave & he won the victory over it. But here again we are looking at 3 different defintions of hell & when & where it is used & what it is pertaining to.

also keep in mind the order of events concerning satan. the bible does not always lay everything out in perfect order of the way it happened.

it is a big mystery

i will be away for awhile, because I am religioned out

& have to get back & focus on the real world of work.
but there are some real good people here to discuss with you & may Jesus keep you in His love & mercy, so that we may dwell in His tabernacle all the days of our lives.

tommy · 06-10-2005, 12:14 AM

We did hear about Hell in the Bible, but I do believe we return to dust if we are not raised up or one of the anointed class. I just have a hard time believing those that are not raised up are going to spend eternity burning in a fiery Hell and will have another fate different from Adam returning to dust. I think the references in the Bible about Hell refer to the fiery pits where trash was burned around the time of Sodom and is not the place where the wicked go to burn. I really do not know if Michael is the Archangel or the symbolism in Revelations refers to Jesus. I have heard both arguments and cannot gain enough facts from the Bible to make a determination other then the following. It would seem appropriate that it was Jesus who hurled satan from Heaven. I mentioned Michael in Revelation 12:7 that uses symbolism and refers to Jesus in several different references (the Mightly One,Lamp of God ect.) in addition to his name. Daniel Chapter 12:1 ties to the OT reference to Michael (the Archangel) as the “Great Prince” and some recognize the symbolism that Jesus, “Prince of Princes” is referring to Jesus in song and MAY actually be Jesus rather then Michael. Revelations is sometimes hard to figure out if they are using symbolism. Since we are not given enough facts in the Bible to determine this I would be more interested in hearing other thoughts about what happens after you die. Is there more then one class that believers go to after death, spiritual and the class that live in an earthly paradise, similar to what was afforded to Adam and Eve and if God will make that happen, that is eternal life in an earthly paradis, since it didn’t work out the first go around. I am still in my car in a parking lot a little bit out of San Francisco on work. I will check any responses tomorrow and am very interested in learning from you and others about what you think about the new Heaven and new Earth. I find that most people I talk to believe that the after life is entirely spiritual. Also, the original everlasting life concept that was afforded to Adam and Eve and new Earth mentioned in the Bible has me questioning my original beliefs I have had for many years and I do believe in the former now and have for some time. I do not know all the answers are am more interested in how others think about this. Blessings...

juantoo3 · 06-10-2005, 01:17 AM

Kindest Regards, all, and especially path of one!

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I don't mind that my days here are short and I'm going to meet death. It will release me to my Creator.

I agree with you. I tell my friends and family to throw a party for me, I'm outta here and gone home to be with my Father!

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I believe the Garden of Eden is a symbol for a time when humans were not separated from God and lived in harmony with all Creation...I believe the Garden of Eden refers to a state of being at one with God and all Creation, not a literally paradise on earth (though the result of this state would be paradise).

Rather than go back to your previous post, this will do.

I find myself in agreement, philosophically, with (trying to live in) harmony with nature. Especially as a child, I was able to commune with creatures great and small. Still do, but to a lesser degree.

But then reality sets in. For example, right now I am struggling with the worst infestation of fleas I have ever seen. I have tried to make my space on my property as non-intrusive as I could be. I have no lawn for instance, I encourage the native wildflowers and whatever else pops up that seems ornamental and appropriate. But no matter, my property always looks like a mess. And I have had to deal, harshly at times, with "nature" encroaching on my living space. I hate that I have to resort to chemical warfare against the fleas, but at this moment it is them or me. Previously it was the wild grape vines (non-bearing, already tried pruning and cultivating). I still struggle with the sand spurs and spanish needles, a yearly thing.

I am all for "tending" the garden, I don't believe in wholesale destruction. But I still have to find that correct balance so that I am not run out of my home. So yes, philosophically I agree with tending nature and allowing her place and space. But not at the expense of my own requirements, and I keep my needs to a minimum.

juantoo3 · 06-10-2005, 01:29 AM

About the New Heaven and New Earth, I haven't made any serious heads or tails of the matter. As I recall, this is after the final judgement, in which case the mystery will male itself known in due time. If instead it is reference to the Millenial Reign, I have heard of two main lines of thought. One says we will be here in a spirit body, the other in flesh. Time will tell. Sorry if that is not much help, but this is a vague subject in the Bible with little reference to go by.

As for suffering, perhaps I am ignorant and run the risk of offense (which is not intended), but I think suffering is over-rated. The message of Jesus is not suffering, it is love. I fail to see how suffering brings us any closer to God. I really don't think God intends for us to suffer, or that our deliberate suffering of our own making brings us any closer to God. Suffering will happen, to that much I can agree, it is something we simply have to bear in this life. But it is something we can choose to take with a smile on our face and keep on keepin' on, or we let it overwhelm us. Perhaps that is how some deal with suffering, convincing themselves they are somehow doing God a service, I don't know. But I fail to see the logic or the loving spirit in dwelling on one's suffering. At least, that is how I see it. My apologies if I cause any offense.

Quahom1 · 06-10-2005, 02:48 AM

That which does not kill you makes you stronger...though not neccessarily wiser.

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tommy · 06-10-2005, 05:49 AM

You guys have been the nicest on any religious fourms I have visited. I am not a big poster, but really got into it here because of the Christian love here...thanks...Love...Love is awesome. Since a lot is not known about the new Heaven and new Earth, I think it is a big part of the Bible and much of Revelations focuses aroung that topic. It is not that we should suffer for God that I am stressing in my post, it is that the only difference I feel between the new Earth and the Earth today is that "suffering" will be no more and our tears will be wiped away. Love is also physical and imagine having that kind of love continue on an everlasting path, that we can enjoy with our loving partners for ages indefinate. Yes, have our senses and live in a perfect world God made for us. To know Jesus, Moses, Noah and John. Love is what Path to One pointed out in being in harmony with God's creation animals and nature (I re-read what path to one posted and it is amazing her wisdom and thought process). Bandit is full of Christian Brotherly love and a great guy. Love is how you welcomed me Juan, right after I put up my first post here and welcomed me and let me know not to come on the attack like one of the disciples would have shared with one another. It is what Christians have to share on a common ground that many without faith fall short of. Love is how you all welcomed me even though I said some things that you probably disageed with. I am a stranger, someone with long posts (thank you for taking the time to read them). But is it really ALL just about love? Did the merchants all love Jesus when he knocked over the Money Changers coins in front of the Temples in Jerusalem John 2:15. Does someone who shows love to their neighbor, but fails to give love and praise to God's name receive His favor? No. However love is powerful and it says in 1John 4:8 that he that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. Love is a feeling of warm personal attachment. Man is not made to just exist but to enjoy eating, to delight in viewing the color and beauty of creation, to enjoy animals as well as the company of his fellowmen and to find pleasure in the countless other delights of living ps 139:14, 17, 18. As the apostle John wrote wrote, "as for us, we love because he loved us first 1John 4:19. Jesus' love is complete, perfect Eph 3:19 Here is the main teaching of Jesus, "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you, that you also love one another John 13:34. Love does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. Thanks for your time and sharing of Scriptures. Bless God, tommy