Why God Permits Suffering to Humankind - Page 3

JonMarc · 06-10-2005, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy

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We did hear about Hell in the Bible, but I do believe we return to dust if we are not raised up or one of the anointed class. I just have a hard time believing those that are not raised up are going to spend eternity burning in a fiery Hell and will have another fate different from Adam returning to dust.
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it is my personal belief that hell is the complete separation from God. whether it is a literal fiery pit of damnation i do not know, but i believe the key to understanding hell is that it will be the knowledge of His existence, yet the inability to dwell with Him in spirit. We here on earth are separated from God in spirit, but path of one hit on a good point, that we can return to that state of being with Him, or at least put ourselves on the path of returning to that state. that is what gives us christians joy. yet however delightful it is to know that we are on a way there, this is not where our duty as Christians ends. God requires more of us, to do His will, in all things that we do to glorify His name. for those who know Him, imagine what it would be like if you also knew that you were completely out of his view, that no part of Him was With you! what a hell that would be.
In regards to 'dust to dust', i believe that is in reference to these vessels we spend our earthly days in. our soul is created by God and i do not believe our soul came from the dust. Our soul came from the Holy Spirit, and gives these vessels life. without the presence of the soul the bodies will fall and return to the dust out of which they were formed.
consider this... if you take the 'so shall you return to dust' line literally, then upon a woman's death does she become a man's rib if she does not go to be With God? just a thought.
and these are, as always, nothing more than my humble opinions anyway...

JonMarc · 06-10-2005, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

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...I think suffering is over-rated. The message of Jesus is not suffering, it is love. I fail to see how suffering brings us any closer to God. I really don't think God intends for us to suffer, or that our deliberate suffering of our own making brings us any closer to God.
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wow... i had just typed up a reply and my mouse has a button that i sometimes hit on accident that the computer interprets as me wanting to go back to the last page i was at. so then when i hit forward again everything i had typed is gone. my computer is about to learn a lesson or two in suffering! haha

it is my belief that suffering can bring people closer to God. in that i think people who suffer a great deal often see God out of necessity. if we reach that point, and then make a decision to seek Him out, then our suffering brought us closer to Him. however this is different from dwelling in it. and i completely agree that suffering is over-rated.

suffering for the sake of suffering is, in my humble opinion, a cop-out. it is so much easier for us to hurt ourselves 'for God' then it is to get out there and do His will for us. we are not taught to sit alone and love God. that is not Love, and God IS Love. we are taught that we should discern His Will for us, and get to it! we should shine the light of God, reflect it on others in our actions and our words. that is Love.

suffering is, however, part of God's plan for us at times. sometimes we need some suffering in our lives to remind us of the Source of our Joy. sometimes we need to suffer and get back to basics because we have lost our way. sometimes we need to remember that it is our duty to make our will His Will, and there are many things we could be doing that we aren't because it does not coincide with our will. some suffering can bring back the focus at times. but we shouldn't dwell in our suffering thinking it is bringing us closer to God. it can simply help to get us back to a place where we are bringing ourselves closer to Him by doing His Will for us.

i hope i'm being clear here. if not oh well, that's the best i can do right now and i hate re-typing things that have been lost anyway. haha, frustration...
also my intention here is not to preach, rather to express my thoughts on suffering with some *however slight* degree of clarity.
Peace and Love

tommy · 06-10-2005, 03:53 PM

JonMarc, you have convinced me that I am not entirely right in my comment there is no hell. Way to go and very thoughtful too. It is where you can't get back and different then the New Earth and New Heaven where either you go in a spiritial or physical sense. We don't know the answer but as I feel I am maturing in life, I am leaning towards the New Earth being a physical thing where you have senses for one reason as a vision of things to come. Jesus was empowered to raise Lazerus and restore his senses. Is Lazerus the only one in God's creation that this is going to happen to. If it is, it makes Lazerus very unique. Highly unlikely! John Lennon is a spirit now who is immortal and brought peace to many. These words become clearer to me as I am growing older.

Imagine there's no Heaven. It's easy if you try. No Hell below us. Above us only sky. Imagine all the people living for today. Imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for and no religion too. Imagine all the people living in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us and the world will live as one. Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can. No need for greed or hunger. A brotherhood (and sisterhood) of man. Imagine all the people sharing all the world....

path_of_one · 06-10-2005, 04:49 PM

Love that song...

Juan- I too agree that suffering isn't what Christ was about. But I do think that suffering can bring us closer to God, in two ways- first, that in suffering we are prompted to lean ever more on God, and we find God manifest in more material ways (at least, I have- nothing like being in severe physical pain and praying your way out of it). Second, and I think even more importantly, because there is suffering, we are called in love to follow Christ's example and alleviate the suffering of others. The suffering of humanity often brings out the best in everyone. Crisis situations cause sudden unity, compassion, and loving work to ensue. Everyone starts praying more. It is rare that a person can have everything they want on earth, be happy, and still find God- "it easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter heaven." I do think suffering is part of God's temporary plan for us, and I think part of the lesson is that it is ephemeral. And as for the fleas and nature- part of the equation is tending! And of course, we are part of nature too, and deserve to live without being in itchy spasms!

I always ask the bug infestations to leave first, and sometimes they do (especially spiders, for some reason they seem to listen more). And if it's individual bugs I'll just catch them and release them outside. But if they ignore me or will be dangerous to my animals or me, they do get the final boot. After all, it's all about balance.

Tommy- thanks for the bit on love. I, too, find that there is a lot of love and Christian support here, even though we often don't all agree! It's like a virtual Bible study a bit for me- I love the fellowship. I would put forth that God is all about love, and the scene with the money changers is no exception. God loves us enough to discipline us, and to want us to grow spiritually (and otherwise). It isn't just a sappy, indulgent love. It is a watchful concern, a deep nurturing... and sometimes that requires events that seem to us, at the time, not very comfortable. Like pruning a rose bush... it results in more blooms, but requires discomfort.

believer142 · 06-23-2005, 09:16 AM

I think that God allows suffering to occur becuase there is a greater purpose. We as children got punished so we wouldnt misbehave. We learned from our mistakes and never made them again.

I view suffering this way: God to humans is like a human to a bear. If someone saw a bear trapped in a bear trap, he may try to help it. In order to release the bear the human may have to push it further into the trap to loosen it . The bear, however, thinks that the human is trying to hurt it and retaliates. Some people, like the bear, become angry with god for some of his/her misfortunes and retaliate.

Quahom1 · 06-23-2005, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by believer142

I think that God allows suffering to occur becuase there is a greater purpose. We as children got punished so we wouldnt misbehave. We learned from our mistakes and never made them again.

I view suffering this way: God to humans is like a human to a bear. If someone saw a bear trapped in a bear trap, he may try to help it. In order to release the bear the human may have to push it further into the trap to loosen it . The bear, however, thinks that the human is trying to hurt it and retaliates. Some people, like the bear, become angry with god for some of his/her misfortunes and retaliate.

I'd substitute the "bear" for a child, and the "human" for a good parent.

v/r

Q

Salim Syed · 06-24-2005, 05:42 PM

My perspective (I'm Muslim) :

Everything except the creator God (Almighty and Exalted is He) is perishing. Everyone will taste death. Death is not a punishment but a door to the next eternal life. God tests us with many trails and tribulations sometimes this maybe :

1. A punishment for going outside his set laws
2. A test to see if we are loyal in our faith in good and bad times
3. A reminder of our weakness and helplessness when we become arrogant

However the majority of suffering is caused by mankind to each other. Because they no longer follow divine guidence. Just like a mother who warns her child out of love, not to do things that will harm it's self. God has laid down so many rules, which if followed keep mankind from destroying temselves and others.

But humans are arrogant and weak, and they sometimes disobey or forget, and so create harm for each other.

For believers no harm touches them but a sin is erased. So those who are believers but very sinful will more than like suffer as a cleansing before the next world.

However belief in God's mercy is always the rope by which people in suffering hold onto, knowing that for God forgiveness is nothing to him, as he says:

"Son of Adam! If your sins were to reach the limits of the sky, and then you seek My forgiveness, I shall forgive you, and I do not care. Son of Adam! If you will bring sins equal in volume to the earth and then you meet Me (on the day of Judgment) in the state that you would not have suggested partners unto Me, I shall give you in return forgiveness equal to the volume of the earth."

Peace

Quahom1 · 06-25-2005, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salim Syed

My perspective (I'm Muslim) :

Everything except the creator God (Almighty and Exalted is He) is perishing. Everyone will taste death. Death is not a punishment but a door to the next eternal life. God tests us with many trails and tribulations sometimes this maybe :

1. A punishment for going outside his set laws
2. A test to see if we are loyal in our faith in good and bad times
3. A reminder of our weakness and helplessness when we become arrogant

However the majority of suffering is caused by mankind to each other. Because they no longer follow divine guidence. Just like a mother who warns her child out of love, not to do things that will harm it's self. God has laid down so many rules, which if followed keep mankind from destroying temselves and others.

But humans are arrogant and weak, and they sometimes disobey or forget, and so create harm for each other.

For believers no harm touches them but a sin is erased. So those who are believers but very sinful will more than like suffer as a cleansing before the next world.

However belief in God's mercy is always the rope by which people in suffering hold onto, knowing that for God forgiveness is nothing to him, as he says:

"Son of Adam! If your sins were to reach the limits of the sky, and then you seek My forgiveness, I shall forgive you, and I do not care. Son of Adam! If you will bring sins equal in volume to the earth and then you meet Me (on the day of Judgment) in the state that you would not have suggested partners unto Me, I shall give you in return forgiveness equal to the volume of the earth."

Peace

Not far off from Christ's teachings my friend. Not far off at all...

Only difference is that Jesus forgives now, not at the end. And Jesus want to utilize your availability now, to help others.

You remind me of Paul...strong of will, strong of concsience...asking questions. Cool

v/r

Q

Salim Syed · 06-25-2005, 12:56 AM

"Congratulations to the person who has washed his sins with repentance: and has retracted from mistakes before the return (to God) and who has raced to the possible before it became impossible."God, the Exalted and Glorious, stretches out His Hand during the night so that the people repent for the fault committed from dawn till dusk and He stretches out His Hand during the day so that the people may repent for the fault committed from dusk to dawn (He would accept repentance) before the sun rises in the west (before the Day of Resurrection).

Said the Prophet on whom be peace: "Says God, 'He who knows (and believes) that I forgive all sins, then I do forgive all his sins, and do not care - so long as he does not suggest partners unto Me." And the rule will be applied (continues the Prophet ) in the Hereafter."

Praise be to God Lord of the worlds, who even though He has power over all things, is the Most Merciful or those who can show Mercy.

All we have to do is ask forgiveness and it is given.....