Why is Christianity loosing the cultural war ?

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Yes, I think it's such a shame when the kids are stuck with raising their parents, which I see all too often.
Oh, so my best redeeming aspect is that of being a broodmare? I think I wanna puke.

May be you are looking at it the wrong way

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by soleil10

May be you are looking at it the wrong way

Perhaps you are the one who is looking at it the wrong way.

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Btw, I'm willing to look at any chapter and verse you have that sheds light on Jesus' views on gays and/or on the merits of same sex marriage.

Very clever Netti.

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Perhaps you are the one who is looking at it the wrong way.

OK have it your way, forget about lineage

[Netti-Netti]

Well, it's an interesting debate from the standpoint of conservative culture. Social conservatives who want to invoke some kind of divinely inspired agendan connection with their opposition to SS marriage would appear to be in conflict with Constitutional principes as well as out of touch with Christian principles.

I don't know if "fanatical" is the right word, but the lack of any grounding as far as Constitutional basis or Scriptural support makes it hard to avoid the impression that rigid opposition to SS marriage is misguided in the sense of being outside a normative legal/religious framework. Because they'll have the quality if being "out there," activist efforts are unlikely to accomplish any kind of attitude change.

If I were in a conservative leadership position, I would write SS marriage off as a lost cause. Here's why:

The conflict between the religious pretext and a commonly espoused Constitionalism will likely cause the ideology to come across as incoherent and unsound. As a result, the rhetoric will become less effective. Conservatives will become marginalized by association. This will undermine the viability of conservatism even more.

I believe the possbilities for political debate and action may be significantly diminished as the public writes off RW ideologues as hopeless wackadoos. I predict that over time conservative politicians will become less and less willing to be visible on the issue of gay rights because they want to avoid any association with a misguided movement. The movement will fizzle due to an inability to get results stemming from a lack of political momentum.

But to get back to ideology real quick. There is no Bibical basis that I can see for opposition to SS marriage. As for the Constitional aspects, they are covered in a statement made by Maine's Gov. John Baldacci in relation to Maine becoming the Fifth state to allow gay marriage:

In the past, I opposed gay marriage while supporting the idea of civil unions. I have come to believe that this is a question of fairness and of equal protection under the law, and that a civil union is not equal to civil marriage.

Article I in the Maine Constitution states that 'no person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law, nor be denied the equal protection of the laws, nor be denied the enjoyment of that person's civil rights or be discriminated against.'

This new law does not force any religion to recognize a marriage that falls outside of its beliefs. It does not require the church to perform any ceremony with which it disagrees. Instead, it reaffirms the separation of Church and State," Governor Baldacci said. It guarantees that Maine citizens will be treated equally under Maine's civil marriage laws, and that is the responsibility of government. Even as I sign this important legislation into law, I recognize that this may not be the final word. Just as the Maine Constitution demands that all people are treated equally under the law, it also guarantees that the ultimate political power in the State belongs to the people.

Maine, fifth state to allow gay marriage - First Read - msnbc.com

If you're a conservative, you can't invoke a religious pretext and at the same time claim to take on stand on equal rights protection afforded by the Constitution. The conservative media that wants to exploit the SS marriage issue might get some short-term benefit from doing so. In the long, however, they will actually help make conservative ideas less credible and politically viable. That is, they will be assisting a group that seem intent on self-caricature and self-defeat.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by soleil10

I am not going to do your homework for you. You can start by studying genetic

I just realized something... you're suggesting that I study "genetic"

Does that mean you believe in evolution?

I hope so, because that's some tasty science.


and BTW... Netti-Netti, nice post.

[ARMyers]

Originally Posted by Dream

Just want to point out that it is not the virgin Jerusalem but the 'Great whore' that strives for doctrinal purity in Revelation. By her 'Sorceries the nations were deceived'. On the other hand it is the Virgin Bride, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from directly from heaven (without any human origin). She is like the stone of Daniel's vision(Dan 2:35) that is made specifically 'Without hands'. That is the whole point of her purity: she's not due to our striving and gives us no opportunity to boast about any of our own accomplishments. She corresponds directly to the prophecy in Genesis 3:15, which declares it is the 'seed of the woman' that bruises the head of the serpent.

Rev 18:20-24

The Whore of Babylon is actually the corrupted Apostate Church fornicating with the world and corrupting itself. It is juxtaposed to the virgin of purity in faith and truth as refered to in 2 Cor 11:2 (this also explains my point of marriage) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ", Rev 14:4 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb," Matthew 25 (the parable of the 10 virgins or maidens), Amos 5:2 "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up," and Jer 18:13 "Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing."

Whores or whoredoms are many of times references to those nations or peoples that corrupt themselves and do things wicked and unseemly and are not of the Lord. Those nations and peoples of the Lord who do as the Lord commands are always referred to as virgins. Note: not every place where it says virgin or whore is this symbol. Sometimes it literally means a virgin or a prostitute.

The greatest evidence of this juxtaposition is Ezekiel 23 in the comparison of the whoredoms of Samaria or Israel and Jerusalem or Judah to the state of their virginity prior to fornicating themselves with the other nations.

Therefore, the chosen people, now no longer confined by a nation but set forth unto all peoples of every nation, are the virgins who love the Lord and follow His commandments through Christ Jesus for if you truly believe in Christ then you will follow his commandments (John 15) which are all rooted in love for one another. Those that have corrupted themselves and no longer follow the Lord (such as in Ezekiel 23 in reference to Israel and Judah) are prostitutes and are a part of that collective group that is the Whore of Babylon, which is the Apostate Church, as part of the prophecy of things to come starting from the period of John.

Therefore, this virgin is collectively people that follow the Lord in faith, truth and love. In Rev 14:4 the virgins are "redeemed from among men," which stands to reason that they were amongst men on earth and did not defile themselves with women (as it also says) also on earth. It stands to reason the Virgin Bride is not New Jerusalem but the body of believers that follow Christ and worship the Father. Scripture supports this claim.

The "seed of the woman" is a prophecy of Christ. It is the same seed promised to Abraham and to David as spoken by Paul. It is a promise of redemption from the curse of death. The "bruising of the heel" is a prophecy of the crucifixion, but because death could not hold Christ because he had not sinned, he rose and thus was not "crushed" but merely "bruised" by the serpent.

[Janz]

Breaking news or maybe NOT..Dick Cheney offers his support for gay marriage.

Cheney Offers Support For Gay Marriage (VIDEO)

[wil]

Originally Posted by Jamarz

Breaking news or maybe NOT..Dick Cheney offers his support for gay marriage.

Cheney Offers Support For Gay Marriage (VIDEO)

It is called family.

Some folks it doesn't affect but most folks...

When their child has a disability they become advocates of folks with disabilities.

When their child ends up on the wrong side of the law they change their tune about prisoner treatment.

When their child is gay their stance adjusts on gay rights and homophobia.


Again, it doesn't happen to all people, many disown their children for not fitting in the box that they perceive in their mind...others expand their awareness and realize their old viewpoints are archaic.

I often wonder if the universe has a hand in providing us with these lessons, bringing them close to home so to directly affect our awareness.

[Janz]

Speaking of war and I know CZ linked us to an article regarding the tragic assassination of Dr. George Tiller. I personally believe that this was an act of domestic terrorism and I am shocked that Tiller was murdered in his house of worship.

Here are some interesting thoughts from Frank Schaeffer, son of Francis Schaeffer, an evangelical pro-lifer leader who in the early 80's wrote the book, A Christian Manifesto.
Frank has now repented of his former involvement with the Christian Right pro-life movement so I think that his article has some revealing insight.

" My late father and I share the blame (with many others) for the murder of Dr. George Tiller the abortion doctor gunned down on Sunday. Until I got out of the religious right (in the mid-1980s) and repented of my former hate-filled rhetoric I was both a leader of the so-called pro-life movement and a part of a Republican Party hate machine masquerading as the moral conscience of America.

In the late 1970s my evangelical pro-life leader father Francis Schaeffer and Dr. C. Everett Koop (who soon become Surgeon General in the Reagan administration) went on the road with me taking the documentary antiabortion film series I produced and directed ( Whatever Happened to the Human Race?) to the evangelical public. The series and companion book eventually brought millions of heretofore non-political evangelical Americans into the antiabortion crusade. We personally also got people like Jerry Falwell, Ronald Reagan and countless Republican leaders involved in the issue.

In the early 80s my father followed up with a book that sold over a million copies called A Christian Manifesto. In certain passages he advocated force if all other methods for rolling back the abortion ruling of Roe v. Wade failed. He compared America and its legalized abortion to Hitler's Germany and said that whatever tactics would have been morally justified in removing Hitler would be justified in trying to stop abortion. I said the same thing in a book I wrote (A Time For Anger) that right wing evangelicals made into a best seller. For instance Dr. James Dobson (of the Focus On the Family radio show) gave away over 100,000 copies."

He goes on to say:

"Angry speech has become the norm in American religion from both the right and the left. Words are spoken which -- when taken seriously -- lead directly to violence by the unhinged and/or the truly committed.

When evangelicals on the right call President Obama a socialist, a racist, anti-American, an abortionist, not a real American, and, echoing the former Vice President, someone who is weakening America's defenses and making us less safe, the logical conclusion is violence. If you take these words literally you might pull the trigger to "make America safe" and/or free us from communism or to even protect us from -- what some "Christian" leaders claim -- Obama as the Antichrist."

And then he offers an apology.

Frank Schaeffer: How I (and Other "Pro-Life" Leaders) Contributed to Dr. Tiller's Murder

I am sooo tired of listening to the rants of extremists who think that our culture is being attacked by evil satanic forces. This type of speech only fuels the fear and I have personally seen what that fear can do..it is very scary to witness and when such teachings hits you over the head like a two ton gorilla, it is also very hard to walk away from your faith community. I admire Frank Schaeffer for doing so and for writing about these experiences.

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Well, it's an interesting debate from the standpoint of conservative culture. Social conservatives who want to invoke some kind of divinely inspired agendan connection with their opposition to SS marriage would appear to be in conflict with Constitutional principes as well as out of touch with Christian principles.

Matt. 19:4,?5:[Jesus] saidid you not read [at Genesis 1:27; 2:24] that he who created them [Adam and Steve] from the beginning made them male and male and said: For this reason a man will leave his father and his father and will stick to his husband, and the two will be one flesh?

Netti sell your theory to God and Jesus.

It is above my pay grade

[wil]

Originally Posted by Jamarz

Speaking of war and I know CZ linked us to an article regarding the tragic assassination of Dr. George Tiller. I personally believe that this was an act of domestic terrorism and I am shocked that Tiller was murdered in his house of worship.

Here are some interesting thoughts from Frank Schaeffer, son of Francis Schaeffer, an evangelical pro-lifer leader who in the early 80's wrote the book, A Christian Manifesto.
Frank has now repented of his former involvement with the Christian Right pro-life movement so I think that his article has some revealing insight.

" My late father and I share the blame (with many others) for the murder of Dr. George Tiller the abortion doctor gunned down on Sunday. Until I got out of the religious right (in the mid-1980s) and repented of my former hate-filled rhetoric I was both a leader of the so-called pro-life movement and a part of a Republican Party hate machine masquerading as the moral conscience of America.

In the late 1970s my evangelical pro-life leader father Francis Schaeffer and Dr. C. Everett Koop (who soon become Surgeon General in the Reagan administration) went on the road with me taking the documentary antiabortion film series I produced and directed ( Whatever Happened to the Human Race?) to the evangelical public. The series and companion book eventually brought millions of heretofore non-political evangelical Americans into the antiabortion crusade. We personally also got people like Jerry Falwell, Ronald Reagan and countless Republican leaders involved in the issue.

In the early 80s my father followed up with a book that sold over a million copies called A Christian Manifesto. In certain passages he advocated force if all other methods for rolling back the abortion ruling of Roe v. Wade failed. He compared America and its legalized abortion to Hitler's Germany and said that whatever tactics would have been morally justified in removing Hitler would be justified in trying to stop abortion. I said the same thing in a book I wrote (A Time For Anger) that right wing evangelicals made into a best seller. For instance Dr. James Dobson (of the Focus On the Family radio show) gave away over 100,000 copies."

He goes on to say:

"Angry speech has become the norm in American religion from both the right and the left. Words are spoken which -- when taken seriously -- lead directly to violence by the unhinged and/or the truly committed.

When evangelicals on the right call President Obama a socialist, a racist, anti-American, an abortionist, not a real American, and, echoing the former Vice President, someone who is weakening America's defenses and making us less safe, the logical conclusion is violence. If you take these words literally you might pull the trigger to "make America safe" and/or free us from communism or to even protect us from -- what some "Christian" leaders claim -- Obama as the Antichrist."

And then he offers an apology.

Frank Schaeffer: How I (and Other "Pro-Life" Leaders) Contributed to Dr. Tiller's Murder

I am sooo tired of listening to the rants of extremists who think that our culture is being attacked by evil satanic forces. This type of speech only fuels the fear and I have personally seen what that fear can do..it is very scary to witness and when such teachings hits you over the head like a two ton gorilla, it is also very hard to walk away from your faith community. I admire Frank Schaeffer for doing so and for writing about these experiences.

Namaste Jamarz,

Thanx for posting this, it warms my heart as folks see the light. The author is correct, I was at many peace rallies where folks were shouting kill Cheney or some such nonsense...sometimes they just don't get it. Peace is peace, you don't fight for peace, no such thing as war to end war.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Jamarz

I am sooo tired of listening to the rants of extremists who think that our culture is being attacked by evil satanic forces. This type of speech only fuels the fear and I have personally seen what that fear can do..it is very scary to witness and when such teachings hits you over the head like a two ton gorilla, it is also very hard to walk away from your faith community. I admire Frank Schaeffer for doing so and for writing about these experiences.

Amen, Jamrz.

Neither side wins these battles. All we do is bloody each other and prolong the agony.

I'll try to cool my rhetoric and practice peace within these confines of IO and beyond (though some at the sharp end of my barbs may have a hard time believing that).

Peace.

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Amen, Jamrz. Neither side wins these battles. All we do is bloody each other and prolong the agony. I'll try to cool my rhetoric and practice peace within these confines of IO and beyond (though some at the sharp end of my barbs may have a hard time believing that).Peace.

Being a pacifist in front of Communism or the Nazism is a false peace.

Let me say it in the most loving way I can. I think that ss "Nuptial" is the same . It is a totally rotten ideology.

Taking the fundamental human right of a children to their own father or mother and depriving them intentionally of their own history is pure evil. I will say it again P U R E E V I L

Trying to invade the schools and take advantage of young innocent children by trying to confuse them about gender, sexual orientation etc is also just pure evil.

Like all evil concepts, ss nuptial will fall apart of its own weight after having created so much suffering.

It is the same with irresponsible single parenting and casual no fault divorce. Just pain and suffering

An healthy family is the most important institution that benefit a society.

As America is falling fast, we can see that the main cause is the breakdown of families and our morality. So many of our leaders are the results of broken home or dysfunctional families themselves

Satan wants to block God further from this country with ss nuptial.

Have a great day

Love and Peace

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by soleil10

Being a pacifist in front of Communism or the Nazism is a false peace.

Let me say it in the most loving way I can. I think that ss "Nuptial" is the same . It is a totally rotten ideology.

Taking the fundamental human right of a children to their own father or mother and depriving them intentionally of their own history is pure evil. I will say it again P U R E E V I L

Trying to invade the schools and take advantage of young innocent children by trying to confuse them about gender, sexual orientation etc is also just pure evil.

Like all evil concepts, ss nuptial will fall apart of its own weight after having created so much suffering.

It is the same with irresponsible single parenting and casual no fault divorce. Just pain and suffering

An healthy family is the most important institution that benefit a society.

As America is falling fast, we can see that the main cause is the breakdown of families and our morality. So many of our leaders are the results of broken home or dysfunctional families themselves

Satan wants to block God further from this country with ss nuptial.

Have a great day

Love and Peace

Can Satan actually block God?
No, it is we, with our free will, who block God. Would you say that hatred of others is one way we block God?

Galatians 5:16-26
16 I say then, walk by the Spirit (Q) and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires (R) what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don't do what you want. (S) 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: [a] [b] sexual immorality, (T) moral impurity, (U) promiscuity, (V) 20 idolatry, (W) sorcery, (X) hatreds, (Y) strife, (Z) jealousy, (AA) outbursts of anger, (AB) selfish ambitions, (AC) dissensions, (AD) factions, (AE) 21 envy, (AF) [c] drunkenness, carousing, (AG) and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (AH)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit (AI) is love, (AJ) joy, (AK) peace, patience, (AL) kindness, (AM) goodness, faith, [d] 23 gentleness, (AN) self-control. (AO) Against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus (AP) have crucified the flesh (AQ) with its passions and desires. (AR) 25 If we live (AS) by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. 26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. (AT)