Why so much hatred toward Orthodox Baha'i/Covenant breakers?

[I, Brian]

Thanks for the replies - this is what I mean, from Mick's quote:

At the time of the death of Shoghi Effendi, it was the Hands of the Cause of God that determined that the time was now for the Universal House of Justice to be formed, since Shoghi Effendi had not named anybody to succeed him.

In other words, it was a secular appointment, rather than a direct succession. Shoghi Effendi did not directly appoint the members of the Universal House of Justice, therefore it wasn't a direct succession from the Bab -> Effendi where spiritual authority was inviolate?

I'm not trying to pour water on the faith here - simply that it's a common issue in religion that direct succession eventually requires a faithful "core group" to set up apparatus on which the faith can continue, and from what I'm reading here, this is what happened with the Baha'i faith.

Simply exploring the issue.

[Promethium]

The Universal House of Justice is a part of the Administrative Order outlined in the Bahai writings. Even if there had been another appointed Guardian of the Faith the Universal Hous of Justice would have come into existence. Spiritual law was not violated and since it is not a secular idea but one embedded in the writings of the Faith's Founder.

[I, Brian]

That's what I mean, though - I'm reminded very much of early Christianity and Islam. At some point, a temporal institution having to interpret scripture without the same level of spiritual authority, except for what they claimed.

I guess that's why any such institution will tend to have greatest animosity for those nearest to themselves - because they are in a more direct position to challenge it.

Reminds me of a joke once posted on CR:

It seems that a man was about to commit suicide by jumping from a high bridge, when a second man ran up to him shouting, "Stop! Stop! Don't do it!"
"But I have nothing to live for," said the first man.
"Maybe I can help you," said the second man. "Are you religious?"
"Yes, I am," said the first man.
"Me too!" said the second man. "Are you Christian, Jewish, or Moslem?"
"I'm Christian," said the first man.
"Me too!" said the second man. "Are you Protestant or Catholic?"
"I'm a Protestant," said the first man.
"Me too!" said the second man. "Are you Calvinist or Wesleyan?"
"Calvinist," said the first man.
"Me too!" said the second man. "Are you liberal or conservative?"
"Conservative," said the first man.
"Me too!" said the second man. "Evangelical or Fundamentalist?"
"Evangelical," said the first man.
"Me too!" said the second man. "Charismatic, Reformed, or Baptist?"
"Baptist," said the first man.
"Me too!" said the second man. "General Baptist, Conference Baptist, or Northern Baptist?"
"Conference Baptist," said the first man.
"Me too!" said the second man excitedly. "Conference Baptist of the 1932 Conference, or Conference Baptist of the 1946 Conference?"
"Conference Baptist of the 1932 Conference!" said the first man.
"1932??? Then die, infidel heretic scum!" And the second man pushed the first man off the bridge.
-Author unknown

[InLove]

LOL! Hadn't heard that one, but once I chose to do a paper on the Baptist Conventions. I still get a headache when I think about it.

InPeace,
InLove

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Thanks for the replies - this is what I mean, from Mick's quote:



In other words, it was a secular appointment, rather than a direct succession. Shoghi Effendi did not directly appoint the members of the Universal House of Justice, therefore it wasn't a direct succession from the Bab -> Effendi where spiritual authority was inviolate?

I'm not trying to pour water on the faith here - simply that it's a common issue in religion that direct succession eventually requires a faithful "core group" to set up apparatus on which the faith can continue, and from what I'm reading here, this is what happened with the Baha'i faith.

Simply exploring the issue.

Actually, Mick is not quite right. Shoghi Effendi had planned all along for the House of Justice to be elected at the end of the Ten Year Crusade - 1963. The Ten Year Crusade was largely designed to increase the number of Baha`i communities in more nationas around the world to create a larger pool of National Assemblies who would do the actual VOTING for the Universal House of Justice.

The Hands of the Cause were also delegated with the responsibility for seeing to the protection of the Faith when the Guardian died without a successor or designate. The trick was that in all Baha`i consultative body, the authority is vested in the ASSEMBLY, not the individuals. When polled the Hands voted 25-0 to schedule the election, and bar the Hands and women from being elected to the first House. Once the first House of Justice was elected those questions, plus the possibility of appointing another Guardian were directed to the House of Justice for a decision.

So, in short, Shoghi Effendi planned the election of the first House, making it contingent on a doubling of the number of National Spiritual Assemblies during the Ten Year Crusade. The number of NSA's almost tripled in fact.

Add this:
"In studying the world-wide state of the Ten Year Plan, we have been forced to realize that the election of the eleven independent National Assemblies which must, in accordance with the Plan of the Guardian, be established in the European continent before the end of the Crusade, is much more difficult and presents a greater challenge than is the case in Latin America as the Local Assemblies must be quadrupled rather than doubled. We have therefore set the date for the election of these European national bodies for Ridvan 1962. It is our conviction that with constant and concentrated effort and sacrifice, our objectives can be accomplished there and the requisite number of Local Assemblies be brought into being by Ridvan 1961. The National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Ceylon will likewise be elected in 1962.
With the formation of these national bodies, and we trust, circumstances permitting, of the two others specified in the provisions of the Ten Year Plan, a wide and representative foundation for the Universal House of Justice will have been laid."
(Custodians, Ministry of the Custodians, p. 167)


Regards,
Scott

P.S. The Universal House of Justice was never intended to be appointed.

"The sacred and youthful branch, the Guardian of the Cause of God, as well as the Universal House of Justice to be universally elected and established, are both under the care and protection of the Abha Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of the Exalted One (may my life be offered up for them both). Whatsoever they decide is of God. Whoso obeyeth him not, neither obeyeth them, hath not obeyed God; whoso rebelleth against him and against them hath rebelled against God; whoso opposeth him hath opposed God; whoso contendeth with them hath contended with God; whoso disputeth with him hath disputed with God; whoso denieth him hath denied God; whoso disbelieveth in him hath disbelieved in God; whoso deviateth, separateth himself and turneth aside from him hath in truth deviated, separated himself and turned aside from God. May the wrath, the fierce indignation, the vengeance of God rest upon him! The mighty stronghold shall remain impregnable and safe through obedience to him who is the Guardian of the Cause of God. It is incumbent upon the members of the House of Justice, upon all the Aghsan, the Afnan, the Hands of the Cause of God to show their obedience, submissiveness and subordination unto the Guardian of the Cause of God, to turn unto him and be lowly before him. He that opposeth him hath opposed the True One, will make a breach in the Cause of God, will subvert His Word and will 12 become a manifestation of the Center of Sedition."
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 11)

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

So, in short, Shoghi Effendi planned the election of the first House, making it contingent on a doubling of the number of National Spiritual Assemblies during the Ten Year Crusade. The number of NSA's almost tripled in fact.

<snip>

P.S. The Universal House of Justice was never intended to be appointed.

Hi Scott, But isn't it also true that it was never intended that the office of the Guardianship would end when the UHJ was founded? I recall that Baha'u'llah's writings incidate that there were to always be the elected arm (the UHJ), the appointed arm (the Guardianship), and the Learned arm (The Hands and now the Counselors).

I am not trying to imply anything about the intactness/authority of the UHJ or Baha'i Admin Order, just showing that there was inteneded to be an appointed office as well as the elected UHJ.

cheers,
luna

[Popeyesays]

It was indeed intended by Abdu'l Baha that the Guardianship and the Universal House of Justice would be together in authority--the Guardian as interpreter and the House of Justice as Legislator. But Abdu'l Baha could not anticipate Shoghi Effendi dying without issue or a successor.

That's why the House of Justice was established to legislate what to do about the Guardianship. The Hands had decided what to do temporarily, but at the first opportunity passed the problem to the House which DID have jurisdiction over such an event.

By the way the Guardianship may be vacant, but it's not dead.

Regards,
Scott

[I, Brian]

It's not so much that I doubt there was a plan for the formation of the UHJ - simply the plain cold fact that there was no direct succession of direct spiritual authority.

Again, I'm not pouring water on the issue - simply observing that it seems a common element in the development of different theological groups.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

It's not so much that I doubt there was a plan for the formation of the UHJ - simply the plain cold fact that there was no direct succession of direct spiritual authority.

Again, I'm not pouring water on the issue - simply observing that it seems a common element in the development of different theological groups.

This is largely why I feel it was such a leap of courage for the Hands to do as they did, how convenient it might have been to decide amongst themselves who might be most appropriate to be placed in the position of 'Guardian' and go back to business as normal in the administration of the faith.

To face a hard decision in such a degree of unanymity speaks for a maturity in the face of tribulation that belies it's existence for not quite a hundred years. I am not aware that the position of 'Guardian' was prohibited from the female line of descent, in which case the sister of Abdu'l Baha or Shoghi Effendi's widow might have made an obvious choice.

To tough it out and follow the Will and Testament's direction to refer such a question to the Universal House of Justice as that document directed was not the easy choice.

One might consider what could have happened if Shoghi Effendi had lived another ten years. How would the passing of a Guardian without offspring have been handled in consultation between the House and the Guardian?
The situation would have been the same.

I can't think of any faith, historically, which has faced the issues of leadership with such unanimity and deliberation.

To be frank, it is one of the things which attracted me to the faith in the first place.

Regards,
Scott

[arthra]

I noticed a number of posters here seem to be forgetting that the Hands of the Cause of God were appointed by Shoghi Effendi to defend and propagate the Faith... So when the Guardian paswsed away the Hands were already committed to see that the Faith continued and to see that the Universal House of Justice was established:

"The Hands of the Cause of God were individuals appointed by Bahá’u’lláh and charged with various duties, especially those of protecting and propagating His Faith. In Memorials of the Faithful ‘Abdu’l-Bahá referred to other outstanding believers as Hands of the Cause, and in His Will and Testament He included a provision calling upon the Guardian of the Faith to appoint Hands of the Cause at his discretion."

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas
Author: Bahá’u’lláh

Source: Bahá’í World Centre, 1992 edition Pages: 254

Protection and propagation were always the function of the Hands of the Cause and they perfoormed this role for this part in an exemplary fashion.... Seeing that the Universal House of Justice was established in 1963 was part of their function.

A little more research is needed to properly understand the process involved... which reminds me of the concept of the "Walled Garden" approach we have at CR. People are ready to attack the Faith here when it should be known that there are comparative religion sections that are available.

- Art

[Promethium]

"They[Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha] have also, in unequivocal and emphatic language, appointed those twin institutions of the House of Justice and of the Guardianship as their chosen Successors, destined to apply the principles, promulgate the laws, protect the institutions, adapt loyally and intelligently the Faith to the requirements of progressive society, and consummate the incorruptible inheritance which the Founders of the Faith have bequeathed to the world."
-Shoghi Effendi, World Order of Baha'u'llah selected letters p.19-20

[arthra]

I just had one additional comment I wanted to make and that is that when Baha'is declare their belief in Baha'u'llah they enter into a Covenant... that Covenant is a signed agreement which states in part:

"I request enrollment in the Baha'i Community with the understanding that Baha'u'llah has established sacred principles, laws, and institutions which I must obey."

For this reason, someone who agrees to a covenant and later consciously and deliberately renigs or attacks the principles of our Faith and it's institutions can be deemed to be a "covenant breaker"...

It's not just someone with a different opinion on an issue or someone who disagrees and is independent minded.

Only the Universal House of Justice can determine who is breaking the covenant and authorise any action. Very few people are actually ever designated to be covenant breakers.... this is published through our official communications. I recall hearing about one case a few years ago so it is not a common thing.

Once deemed a covenant breaker there is always an avenue to return to the community when the person has truly repented and requests reinstatement.

- Art

[I, Brian]

"I request enrollment in the Baha'i Community with the understanding that Baha'u'llah has established sacred principles, laws, and institutions which I must obey."

Curious - how long has this oath been in effect?

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Curious - how long has this oath been in effect?

It's on the declaration card, just above the signature. Back in the old days, when Abdu'l Baha was alive, if one wished to declare as a Baha`i one wrote to Abdu'l Baha and awaited a reply. Shortly after Shoghi Effendi established the administrative boundaries boundaries of the National Spiritual Assemblies, local assemblies interviewed those who wished to declare and passed along a declaration card with recommendation to the National Spiritual Assembly above them.

This protocol was begun sometime early in the 1930's. NSA's maintain membership lists today, questions of membership and credentials are handled between NSA's when necessary. There is a second sentence in the declaration that says one understands and respects the authority of Abdu'l Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice as well. The "House of Justice" was added to that 'genealogy of authority' in 1963.

Membership cards as such are owned by the National Assembly in question and given to the individual so he can attend Feast or Conventions when travelling. If one travels between NSA's, one should obtain a letter from the NSA in one's home to take with them to the other countries as a dind of 'passport'. If one moves from one country to another on a permanent or prolonged basis one transfers membership from the old NSA to the new NSA. and becomes eligible in Baha`i elections in the new country of residence.

Regards,
Scott

[kiwimac]

Of course we will not talk about those who have left the faith and then been declared covenant breakers by the UHJ or those who used to post on the Talisman e-list who were removed from voting lists and declared covenant-breakers for expressing opinions over the internet. will we?

Kiwimac -- former Baha'i (no, not a covenant-breaker)