Why Sunday?

[rasell]

The Jerusalem council was about the ceremonial law, some thought the Gentiles needed to become Jews and be circumcised.
The result was a practical decision mainly of which parts of the ceremonial law they needed to keep, it was a light burden, and helped to get the Gentiles accepted.
The council did not say we should not but that does not mean the council was endorsing . The council was not about abolishing the moral law.

Jesus met with his disciples over a period of forty days, not just on Sunday. Nowhere does he say, the Sabbath was changed.

The fact that the 10 commandments are quoted gives good support for their continuance in the NT.
None of the first four are quoted directly but alluded to.
The fact the Jesus and the apostles were keeping the Sabbath is as good as commanding it. There was no need to reiterate the Sabbath commandment because both Jews and Christians were keeping it, there was no dispute.

Jesus tended to quote the last six commandments because they were being devauled. e.g. Mark 7, corban - dedicating money to God was used as an excuse not to honour their parents. Jesus was saying we need to love man, that is part of loving God.

The silence on the Sabbath is because it carried on being kept. It was ordained from Creation, kept by Jesus and the apostles.

Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law, not the law itself. Rom 3:31

Jesus never broke the Sabbath according to God's law, only according to the rabinnical rules which he rejected. For Jesus healing was lawful on the Sabbath - Matthew 12; but for the Pharisees it was not. Jesus rejected these man made rules - Mark 7.

God Bless


Marc

[rasell]

No, the Law is not eternal. Galatians 3:19 gives the purpose of the Law. It says: "What, then, was the purpose of he law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come."

This speaks of the whole Mosaic system.

But before the Mosaic law, was it not a sin to murder, as Cain murdered his brother. Even in heaven Lucifer sinned by coveting God's place.
The 10 commandments codified what was already true. And they are still true today.
Because their origin preceed the 10 commandments, they are still true.

CREATION & THE SABBATH: The Scriptures are very clear that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not given before Moses:

Gen 2:2-3 shows that is was made holy at Creation. It is implied that it was given to Adam and Eve. Also Ex 20:11 points to the Sabbath starting at Creation.

The Sabbath was inlcuded as part of the Mosaic system, but it predated it.

NO "INSPIRED" WRITER MAKES ANY DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE "MORAL" LAW & THE "CEREMONIAL" LAWS.

Paul does talk of "the law" is a wider and narrower sense.

Unless we make a distinction Paul would be contradicting himself.
He says we are not under the law, yet in another verse says we are not released from the law.

The same verb is used to describe the woman who was released from the law of marriage, as is used in Romans 3:31 to say we are not released from the law.

God Bless


Marc

[Faithfulservant]

Rasell you said:
"The silence on the Sabbath is because it carried on being kept. It was ordained from Creation, kept by Jesus and the apostles."

If thats the case Why mention the other 9 commandments over and over in the NT if they were ordained and kept by Jesus and the apostles?

[rasell]

The Seal of God is NOT the Sabbath! The Bible tells us clearly that the Seal of God is the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer the moment he is saved.

The indwelling of the Spirit is the inward sign that is shown outwardly by obedience to the commandments.

Rev. 12:17 says, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

In the New Covenant, what are the "Commandments" of God? Does this mean Ten Commandments? NO! The Greek word used for the Ten Commandments is "NOMOS". That word is not used here. The word used here is "ENTELE" and means "teachings".

The NIV and NRSV both say commandments, I have not checked the other versions.

John clarifies this and actually tells us what the "commandments" are that we are to keep:

I John 5:1-3 says, "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."

The new commandment of love did not abolish the 10 commandments, it enhanced them. Christ gave the 10 commandments.



As far as the church fathers are concerned, we have two independent historians saying that in the 5th century the majority of Chriistians were keeping the Sabbath and Sunday, but those in Alexandria and Rome had stopped keeping the Sabbath.

DO WE EVEN KNOW THE REAL SABBATH?

In 1582 Gregory XIII found a miscalculation in the calendar and decreed to drop October 5-14 and to drop 3 leap years in every century. In England 11 days (September 3-13) were dropped in 1752, in addition to other changes. (See Heresies Exposed, p. 167).

The calendar may have changed, but never the weekly cycle. I can't remember the details but it went from for example Mon 10th to Tue 20th.

The weekly cycle has never been broken.

God Bless


Marc

[rasell]

An unbiased reading of Colossians 2:16 will show that this is talking about not just "ceremonial Sabbaths." The words "ton sabbaton" or "sabbath days"; are the same words translated "Sabbath day" in Exodus 20:8 in the Septuagint (the Jewish translation of the Old Testament into Greek).

The word used here can also be a transliteration of the Aramaic shabbatha, and so can be singular, a sabbath day, this fits in with the other parts - a feast, a new moon, a sabbath day.
None use the define article. Paul could have made it refer specificially to the weekly Sabbath by saying "the Sabbath".

Look at Paul's reasoning, "Let no one judge you regarding a,

• festival - yearly Sabbaths,
• a new moon - monthly Sabbaths,
• or a Sabbath day - weekly Sabbaths (or if you wish Sabbath days)"
• CHRIST, he goes on to say is the "Substance", these things were shadows.

The reason for including sabbaths was because some of the feast days were sabbaths. e.g. the day of atonement was a solemn sabbath, not a feast. So it is included to make the list of ceremonial days complete.

The backgroud was probably Jewish Christians who felt they needed to observe these days and be circumcised in order to be saved.

The word shadow cannot apply to the Sabbath which goes back to creation, Paul is simply saying the ceremonial days are obsolete.

God Bless


Marc

[Faithfulservant]

Hello Rasell

"The indwelling of the Spirit is the inward sign that is shown outwardly by obedience to the commandments."

- * Its in the word of God. You commented on what I said but you didnt say anything about the scripture which clearly defined that the Holy Spirit is the seal of God.

The Seal of God is NOT the Sabbath! The Bible tells us clearly that the Seal of God is the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer the moment he is saved.

Ephesians 1:13 says, "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

Ephesians 4:30 warns, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 states "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge."

"The NIV and NRSV both say commandments, I have not checked the other versions."

The original Greek word used in the NT is "ENTELE" That is the word used in the Original translation of the bible..

Faithful Servant

[rasell]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Rasell you said:
"The silence on the Sabbath is because it carried on being kept. It was ordained from Creation, kept by Jesus and the apostles."

If thats the case Why mention the other 9 commandments over and over in the NT if they were ordained and kept by Jesus and the apostles?

They were quoted when the situation needed it.
There was no need to quote the Sabbath commandmnet, because there was no dispute as to which day it was.

None of the first four commandments are not quoted directly, only alluded to.

God Bless


Marc

[rasell]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Hello Rasell

"The indwelling of the Spirit is the inward sign that is shown outwardly by obedience to the commandments."

- * Its in the word of God. You commented on what I said but you didnt say anything about the scripture which clearly defined that the Holy Spirit is the seal of God.

The Seal of God is NOT the Sabbath! The Bible tells us clearly that the Seal of God is the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer the moment he is saved.

Ephesians 1:13 says, "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

Ephesians 4:30 warns, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 states "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge."

"The NIV and NRSV both say commandments, I have not checked the other versions."

The original Greek word used in the NT is "ENTELE" That is the word used in the Original translation of the bible..

Faithful Servant

The seal is the Holy Spirit, but how do we know someone has that seal. Jesus said by their fruit you will know them.
So obedience to the commandments is an outward sign of the inner sign - the Holy Spirit.

Entole means commandment, that is the meaning given in my Greek dictionary.

1953 ἐντολή (entolē), ῆς (ēs), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ DBLHebr 5184; Str 1785; TDNT 2.545—LN 33.330 commandment, regulation, an order (Mt 5:19; Mk 10:19; Lk 15:29; Jn 13:34; Ac 17:15; Ro 7:8; 1Co 14:37; Eph 2:15; Col 4:10; Tit 1:14; 2Pe 2:21)

n. noun, or nouns

fem. feminine

DBLHebr Swanson, A Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains: Hebrew (Old Testament)

Str Strong’s Lexicon

TDNT Kittel, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

LN Louw-Nida Greek-English Lexicon

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.) (GGK1953). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

My analytical Greek NT gives:

ἐντολή, ῆς, ἡ (1) of the Old Testament law commandment, precept, ordinance (LU 23.56); (2) of official commands edict, decree, order (JN 11.57); (3) of authoritative but not official directions order, command (LU 15.29)

Friberg, T., Friberg, B., & Miller, N. F. (2000). Vol. 4: Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Baker's Greek New Testament library (Page 152). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

(both references from my logos software)

Entole is used in Mark 10:19 where Jesus refers to the 10 commandments.

God Bless


Marc

[Quahom1]

According to the Roman calendar of 2000 some years ago, Saturday (The day of Saturn), was the seventh day of the week. This in and of itself is irrelevant due to the Romans not observing a "Sabbath", according to Muslim, Judeao/Christian thinking (today).

Sunday (day of Sol), is the first day and the first orb we see in the sky.
Monday (day of the Moon) is the second day and the second orb.
Tuesday (day of Mars) is the third day and the third orb we can see. It is also the day of the god of war.
Wednesday (Day of Mercury) is the fourth day. It is also the day of the messenger god or demi god.
Thursday (Day of Jupiter) is the fifth day. It is also the day of the thunder god.
Friday (Day of Venus) is the sixth day. It is also the god of love and vanity.
Saturday (Day of Saturn) is the seventh day. It is also the day of the god of Time and Harvest, the day of rest, and the day when Rome was often turned on its ear (masters served slaves, crimes went unpunished, revelry was taken often to excess.

That said:
After Constantine became the sole emperor (circa 321 AD), he provided many benefits to Christians they had not previously enjoyed. Since the first century, Christianity had been designated a religio illicita (illegal religion) which meant they were legally forbidden to meet. Among the benefits bestowed on the Christians was the removal of the stigma of an illegal religion. He did not make Christianity the empire's state religion. He also made it possible for Christians to do many other things they had not been permitted prior to his accession. One of those things was public worship. Constantine recognized that Christians were already meeting on the first day of the week, so he designated that as a day of worship.

Sufficient information from Scripture, the early church fathers, and other sources all recognize it was the Christians' custom to meet together on the first day of the week. Constantine did not change the Sabbath. The Sabbath is still Saturday. It commemorates the day God rested after his labors.

It commemorates Creation. Christians worshiped on the first day of the week because Jesus rose from the grave on the first day of the week. It therefore commemorates a "new creation" brought into being by the resurrection of Christ.

So, it seems we are to keep the Sabbath holy (and also rest on the Seventh day, which is Saturday), and we can choose to worship when ever we wish, so we decided that for some of us it would be Sunday, the first day of the week.

Gotta remember, it used to be work six days and rest on the seventh. Now for many of us it is work 5 days, rest on the seventh and the first (works for me)

By the by, we're still called on to pray unceasingly...(I do beleive that has nothing to do with days or hours, let alone weeks).

v/r

Q

[Faithfulservant]

The Sabbath is still not being kept.. even though its claimed to be.

NO "BURGER KING" SABBATHS - You can't "Have It Your Way" with the Sabbath. God specifies how it was to be kept.


-It was to be kept from sunset to sunset (Lev. 23:32)
-No burden was to be carried (Jer. 17:21
-No fire kindled (Ex. 35:3)
-No Cooking done (Ex. 16:23)
-The penalty for doing any of these things during the Sabbath was DEATH (Numbers 15).


Starting your car is firing an engine.. you are making a spark which is fire.

You are not to create work for other people.. You turn the lights on in your house you are creating work for SOMEONE. If you stop and get gas.. and you pay at the checkout.. Your creating work for someone.

You cant take part of the law and apply it and not think about the rest. If your held to the law as strictly as God commanded its not possible and therefore too burdensome.

[rasell]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

According to the Roman calendar of 2000 some years ago, Saturday (The day of Saturn), was the seventh day of the week. This in and of itself is irrelevant due to the Romans not observing a "Sabbath", according to Muslim, Judeao/Christian thinking (today).

Sunday (day of Sol), is the first day and the first orb we see in the sky.
Monday (day of the Moon) is the second day and the second orb.
Tuesday (day of Mars) is the third day and the third orb we can see. It is also the day of the god of war.
Wednesday (Day of Mercury) is the fourth day. It is also the day of the messenger god or demi god.
Thursday (Day of Jupiter) is the fifth day. It is also the day of the thunder god.
Friday (Day of Venus) is the sixth day. It is also the god of love and vanity.
Saturday (Day of Saturn) is the seventh day. It is also the day of the god of Time and Harvest, the day of rest, and the day when Rome was often turned on its ear (masters served slaves, crimes went unpunished, revelry was taken often to excess.

That said:
After Constantine became the sole emperor (circa 321 AD), he provided many benefits to Christians they had not previously enjoyed. Since the first century, Christianity had been designated a religio illicita (illegal religion) which meant they were legally forbidden to meet. Among the benefits bestowed on the Christians was the removal of the stigma of an illegal religion. He did not make Christianity the empire's state religion. He also made it possible for Christians to do many other things they had not been permitted prior to his accession. One of those things was public worship. Constantine recognized that Christians were already meeting on the first day of the week, so he designated that as a day of worship.

Sufficient information from Scripture, the early church fathers, and other sources all recognize it was the Christians' custom to meet together on the first day of the week. Constantine did not change the Sabbath. The Sabbath is still Saturday. It commemorates the day God rested after his labors.

It commemorates Creation. Christians worshiped on the first day of the week because Jesus rose from the grave on the first day of the week. It therefore commemorates a "new creation" brought into being by the resurrection of Christ.

So, it seems we are to keep the Sabbath holy (and also rest on the Seventh day, which is Saturday), and we can choose to worship when ever we wish, so we decided that for some of us it would be Sunday, the first day of the week.

Gotta remember, it used to be work six days and rest on the seventh. Now for many of us it is work 5 days, rest on the seventh and the first (works for me)

By the by, we're still called on to pray unceasingly...(I do beleive that has nothing to do with days or hours, let alone weeks).

v/r

Q

Sunday keeping did not begin until about the 2nd century. The resurrection was the main reason given, but the apostles did not keep Sunday or teach that we should keep it.

The reason for change was more about anti-Jewish sentitments in the Roman Empire.
The resurrection was a good excuse for justfitying the change, but there is no Biblical mandate.

None of the early church fathers of the 2nd century said that Jesus changed the Sabbath.

God Bless


Marc

[rasell]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

-It was to be kept from sunset to sunset (Lev. 23:32)
-No burden was to be carried (Jer. 17:21
-No fire kindled (Ex. 35:3)
-No Cooking done (Ex. 16:23)
-The penalty for doing any of these things during the Sabbath was DEATH (Numbers 15).

1. I do keep Sabbath from sunet to sunset
2. the command about burdens was to stop people carrying thier goods to sell in the market on the Sabbath
3 & 4. making a fire in ancient times required a lot of work, as did cooking
they had the preparation day to prepare things
5. we are not living under a theocracy, the civil side of the law is obsolete

Jesus did not reject the Sabbath, but he rejected the man made rules added to it.

Jesus did not say his disciples could go fishing, but when they were hungry it was OK to pick some heads of corn.

Jesus presented the Sabbath as a day of delight.
But there was never a question as to which day it was.
Jesus kept the Sabbath according to God's law, as Lord of the Sabbath he knew how it should be kept. It was the misinterpretation of the law by the Pharisees that had caused the problem.

God Bless


Marc

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by rasell

2. the command about burdens was to stop people carrying thier goods to sell in the market on the Sabbath

"massa' is the word for burden used in (jer 17:21 and 24 )hebrew the definition is

1. load, bearing, tribute, burden, lifting
   1. load, burden
   2. lifting, uplifting, that to which the soul lifts itself up
   3. bearing, carrying
   4. tribute, that which is carried or brought or borne
2. utterance, oracle, burden n pr m (BDB) Massa = "burden"
3. a son of Ishmael

jer 17:22 nor carry a burden "massa'" out of your houses on the Sabbath day, nor do any work, but hallow the Sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

*this shows that carrying burdens is also different from doing "work"

the word used in this passage is m@la'kah

1. occupation, work, business
2. occupation, business
3. property
4. work (something done or made)
5. workmanship
6. service, use
7. public business
   1. political
   2. religious

3 & 4. making a fire in ancient times required a lot of work

*Can you supply scripture for that for this? It seems pretty clear to me that you should not light any fire on the sabbath.

Ex 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

the hebrew word for kindle used in this scripture is "ba'ar" meaning

1. to burn, consume, kindle, be kindled
   1. (Qal)
      1. to begin to burn, be kindled, start burning
      2. to burn, be burning
      3. to burn, consume
      4. Jehovah's wrath, human wrath (fig.)
   2. (Piel)
      1. to kindle, burn
      2. to consume, remove (of guilt) (fig.)
   3. (Hiphil)
      1. to kindle
      2. to burn up
      3. to consume (destroy)
   4. (Pual) to burn v denom
2. to be stupid, brutish, barbarous
   1. (Qal) to be stupid, dull-hearted, unreceptive
   2. (Niphal) to be stupid, dull-hearted
   3. (Piel) to feed, graze
   4. (Hiphil) to cause to be grazed over

The hebrew word for fire in this scripture is 'esh
fire

1. fire, flames
2. supernatural fire (accompanying theophany)
3. fire (for cooking, roasting, parching)
4. altar-fire
5. God's anger (fig.)

Jesus did not reject the Sabbath, but he rejected the man made rules added to it.
* Which man made rules? the not lighting of fires? The not cooking? the not creating burdens for another? Im not speaking of the levitical rules im talking about the commands of God to Israel in the OT.

Jesus did not say his disciples could go fishing, but when they were hungry it was OK to pick some heads of corn.

*Matthew 12:1 yes he allowed them to feed themselves. Thats also contrary to Gods command in the OT Jer17:21 showing Christ giving freedom from the law.

Jesus presented the Sabbath as a day of delight.
*No argument from me there


Marc

Faithful Servant

[rasell]

Jesus knew how to correctly interpret the laws about the Sabbath. He said it was not his purpose to abolish the law. He never broke the law, that would have been against his teachings.
What he did was reject the legalistic interpretation of the law by the Pharisees.

God Bless


Marc

[Bandit]

I am seeing this as a way that God applied a law to keep Israel in line. A way for them to remember God and devote the day to God. In which case work would, could or might get in the way of that.

I am seeing that we still do it out of tradition. A five day work week. Two days off or one day off, whichever applies and some churches have service on both days or one or the other.

My father always said to me when I was growing up, "Remember every day and keep God in every day and to keep every day holy."

So the idea of exalting a (day) above another or not working is not how I see the sabbath. It could almost get to the point where the DAY or the NO WORK becomes a bigger issue than God and holiness and that we are supposed to remember Him.

I think some get to the point of passing a judgement on others and we have to be careful with these things. It is still one of the commandments, but because a child tells a lie, we cannot judge each other in there eternal destination.

So I am thinking the idea of 'rest' as in not doing anything or leisure gets the law a little off balance. If you walk, that is not rest. If we get dressed and go to the Temple, that is not rest. If you eat, that is not rest.
If the main water pipe breaks are we just going to let it run water for 24 hours and not call the city? If a wild animal attacks someone in your yard are you just going to let them suffer and possibly die, until the next day before you get medical attention? Maybe some people would.

If we just lay around all day, that would be rest.

I think observing God one day (7th day) out the week is a good thing to do and is what God intended in that law.

Why are they resting? To remember God is what I am seeing in this. We STOP our activities and remember God. We make preparation ahead of time to remember God and commune with Him.
This should happen every day, not just 52 days a year.

We see God made man on the 6th day. Lets just say it was a literal day and a literal week, but we know it wasn't.
If man is now HERE on earth since God made him today (the 6th day) then God has not rested because we have not entered the 7th day. There is no lapse or another week that took place between the time God made man and another day of rest.

I see there In Genises where God rested on the 7th day as still prophecy.

See, God is our (mans) eternal rest. WE (people) are His rest. We (people) enter into his rest on the seventh day at the coming of our Lord Jesus.

So what I am seeing is when Jesus said, "My father works and so do I" then in return we are still in mans day and God has not rested yet.

So if something should be done that needs to be done, or someone needs help that cannot wait, then we should do it and use a little common sense while keeping every day we live Holy.

This is just one way I see it.