Why the Palestinians fight

[Muslimwoman]

I don't know if you have seen this program but I am watching it for the first time, it is very interesting and worth a watch:

Video HAMAS: BEHIND THE MASK 1 OF 3 - HAMAS, BEHIND, THE, MASK, TENSION - Dailymotion Share Your Videos

Video HAMAS: BEHIND THE MASK 2 OF 3 - HAMAS, BEHIND, THE, MASK, TENSION - Dailymotion Share Your Videos

Video HAMAS: BEHIND THE MASK 3 OF 3 - HAMAS, BEHIND, THE, MASK, TENSION - Dailymotion Share Your Videos

[wil]

I live just outside Annapolis, MD. Today Syria, Israel, Hamas, Russia, England, and more sent leaders to discuss peace in the middle east. And huzzah, for the umpteempth time in my life they've vowed to create a treaty, at some point over a year from now.

Meanwhile in this world, these videos that MW posted Hamas, behind the mask, Part 1- 543 views, Part 2- 314 views, Part 3- 216 views. The world may feign concern over the conflict in the middle east, but the fact that comedic videos, or videos of someone getting hit in the crotch get hundreds of thousands of views is a true indication of our apathy in this regard.

Thank you for posting. I can't say I understand, I can't understand a woman who writes to the leader requesting her 17 year old son be chosen for a suicide mission. But at the same time, I can understand, if me and 750,000 others were forced from our homes, to live next to a concrete wall, I would probably plot for decades to return home.

Whatever your opinion of the conflict, I'd love to hear your opinion of these videos. And if you deem them biased in some way and wish to provide us with another side, post it. While these videos are troubling, they are not graphic, my 14 year olds watched them with me...the second time.

[bob x]

Today Syria, Israel, Hamas, Russia, England, and more sent leaders to discuss peace in the middle east.

WRONG. Hamas sent tens of thousands into the street to protest against the very idea of peace.

[wil]

Originally Posted by bob x

WRONG. Hamas sent tens of thousands into the street to protest against the very idea of peace.

You are correct, I had heard they were coming, my bad. What did you think of the videos Bob?

[bob x]

I have not been able to get them to load on any of the computers I have access to.

[wil]

Originally Posted by bob x

I have not been able to get them to load on any of the computers I have access to.

What I do when I am on a slow connection is start the videos and then put them on pause. It continues to load while you are doing other things and then when it completes you can watch them without interruption. I would think you especially would be interested in this, I hear your passion about feeling ostracized and oppressed and lack of freedom and rights, I would expect that you would empathize with Hamas and the Palestinians after seeing this.

It is truly a quagmire, I see the issues on both sides. Nothing was obviously solved when Israel was formed, that was the day extended conflict was created. The majority of the world gave people land, they accepted it, and now decades later these families feel it home, while others do as well.

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Guys

I in no way agree with their tactics of targeting civilians but I do think the videos show another side, that we rarely see in the West.

It is easy for us to sit in our safe homes and say 'I would do this or that if I lived there' but let's be honest unless you grow up with it you really have no idea how you would turn out or react. I cannot image the level of hatred someone would have to have in order to kiss their son and send them on a suicide mission (knowing suicide is forbidden) but watching those vidoes does give me a sense of why their minds head in that direction - hopelessness.

Of course there is the Israeli side of the story and I was astonished today to watch a video of an Israeli peace protester being shot in the back of the head with a ruer bullet - it seems their army have no respect for any life, Israeli or Arab.


I thought Hamas were not invited to the talks? I also understand there have been protests on both sides against the peace talks?

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I thought Hamas were not invited to the talks? I also understand there have been protests on both sides against the peace talks?

They aren't invited? Shouldn't they be the key players in peace?...

It sounds like it is going to be more of a peace monologue...

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

They aren't invited? Shouldn't they be the key players in peace?...

Of course they were not invited, the US refuses to hold any talks with them, even though they were democratically elected.

The US paid money to Fatah prior to the elections to stop Hamas winning, once the Palestinians found out about this it was a given that Hamas would win the election (so the US had a great hand in getting them elected).

The refusal to invite them into the peace talks gave Hamas an amazing PR opportunity to shout about how Mahmoud Abbas is a US puppet and will try to sell the Palestinians out in order to get US support for Fatah (a very corrupt party). So the refusal to talk to Hamas is creating new terrorists by the day.

A couple of months ago Hamas were making slight noises toward a two state solution. This week they have gone back to screaming about 'not giving an inch of land' and 'getting Jews off all their land'. We have in fact gone backwards.

Thank you Mr Bush, much appreciated

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

It sounds like it is going to be more of a peace monologue...

Until they are prepared to bring Hamas into the discussions there can be no workable peace plan. The UK learnt that the hard way with the IRA.

[madeinrussia89]

This " we will not talk with terrorists " bs needs to stop. And you'd think this president would learn if not from mistakes in the history of this nation, but from the very recent mistakes of other countries (like Russia in Chechnya) but no. Deeper and deeper into the quicksand again.

Hamas was elected more democratically than George Bush! Hah! Wonderful.

[wil]

Time and some sincerity.

The PLO and Arafat were ignored for years, then finally the US realized that they needed to be in the talks for a lasting solution. Unfortunately by then the Palestinians didn't believe that.

There could be an issue that anyone that goes to the talks or talks peace is all of a sudden a traitor the cause. The cause being to eliminate Israel.

What is hardest for me to comprehend is the growth of the refugees. They've been oppressed, killed, their young men are killing themselves for the cause, yet they've grown from less than a million to 4 million during the same time. The United States hasn't had that population explosion and we have immigrants (legal and illegal) coming in all the time.

[Tao_Equus]

Thanks MW for the links.

It seems obvious, to me anyway, that neither Israel nor the US want peace there. Its too good an excuse to stay armed to the teeth.

Tao

[bob x]

I can understand, if me and 750,000 others were forced from our homes, to live next to a concrete wall, I would probably plot for decades to return home.

This is what I just can't understand. About 500,000 Jews were forced from their homes in the other direction, and while some of them may still have nostalgia for the old Iraq, they haven't been plotting for decades to return; 2 million Germans were forced from their homes just 3 years earlier, and that's all been forgotten; about 10 million Chinese were forced from their homes right at the same time as the 1948 war, and while they did plot for decades to return, that's all been given up, and really it didn't take long for the supposed plan to retake the mainland to become just a theoretical and not a genuine aspiration.
The Palestinians act like no other nation in the history of the world had ever lost territory in a war before.

A couple of months ago Hamas were making slight noises toward a two state solution.

I missed the "slight noises", could you clarify what you are referring to? In any case, it is way way too late for anything short of an unequivocal commitment.

Until they are prepared to bring Hamas into the discussions there can be no workable peace plan. The UK learnt that the hard way with the IRA.

It only became useful to talk to the IRA once the Irish Catholic community had come to accept (most of them, anyhow) that a British withdrawal and unification of Ulster with the Republic was never ever going to happen. There would have been no point in trying to talk to the IRA in, say, 1980.
Similarly, there never was any point in talking to Arafat (I thought the recent "commemoration" of him was very fitting, in a black-humor sort of way: Hamas said they started shooting only because Fatah shot first, but Fatah says the Hamas officers started shooting because children were throwing rocks at them, while the adults were calling them bad names, like "Shi'ite").

they've grown from less than a million to 4 million

There is a special branch of the UN entirely devoted to giving "welfare" to Palestinian refugees (separate from the administration that deals with all other refugees); of course the money is just enough to keep them on the edge of starvation, but it increases if they have more kids. This creates the usual perverse incentive to engage in no productive economics, but instead have a lot of children that other people are expected to support.

[wil]

Originally Posted by bob x

The Palestinians act like no other nation in the history of the world had ever lost territory in a war before..

And are you somehow saying it is uncommon for folks to want or fight to get their land back? I'm pretty much a vagabond and drifter, if I were in New Orleans I wouldn't hesitate to find a life someplace else. However that doesn't mean I can't imagine some folks who had lived in a location for generations feel a commitment to the land.

[bananabrain]

i appreciate some people just can't accept that the israelis would do anything in good faith - perhaps they ought to question the palestinians a bit more closely when fatah (not even hamas) are saying one thing in annapolis and another to their own constituency - DURING the conference:

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b'shalom

bananabrain