Why We Need a Savior

[Silas]

You didnt consider what I said. Why?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Silas

You didnt consider what I said. Why?

With all of the sincere brotherly love I can muster...why don't you consider anything anyone else here has tried to tell you?

[Silas]

I have considered what you guys said. You havent been gracious to do the same. How come?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Silas

I have considered what you guys said. You havent been gracious to do the same. How come?

Seems to me a number of people have considered what you said and responded. I'm perplexed that you don't see their responses. This same thing appears to happen to you on other such threads, despite responses and discussion you continue to change the topic. How come?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by wil

Seems to me a number of people have considered what you said and responded. I'm perplexed that you don't see their responses. This same thing appears to happen to you on other such threads, despite responses and discussion you continue to change the topic. How come?

Dont know. Lets find out why, help me out. What have I said concerning this topic that you have considered?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Silas

Dont know. Lets find out why, help me out. What have I said concerning this topic that you have considered?

hmmm....could it be that I've considered your last post and responded? Or that I considered your first post and responded? Or that other one in the middle, where you responded to me and I responded back, could that be the one I considered?

There was a movie I caught just the other day, don't know the title, but the question was asked by one character to the other, "Are you trying to be an arse? Or are you just this way naturally?"

As I posted in another thread, there exists a bumper sticker around, "Jesus, save me from your followers" And on a thread not so long ago it was opined that folks like me on this site are drivng away baby fundies who are just learning to walk and should be treated with kid gloves while they learn their ways.

I suppose I am not upto that task. Yet another thing I need to work on.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by wil

hmmm....could it be that I've considered your last post and responded? Or that I considered your first post and responded? Or that other one in the middle, where you responded to me and I responded back, could that be the one I considered?

There was a movie I caught just the other day, don't know the title, but the question was asked by one character to the other, "Are you trying to be an arse? Or are you just this way naturally?"

As I posted in another thread, there exists a bumper sticker around, "Jesus, save me from your followers" And on a thread not so long ago it was opined that folks like me on this site are drivng away baby fundies who are just learning to walk and should be treated with kid gloves while they learn their ways.

I suppose I am not upto that task. Yet another thing I need to work on.

You seem to be amused easily. That must interesting? By the way, you havent answered my question. What about this topic have you considered?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Silas

You seem to be amused easily. That must interesting? By the way, you havent answered my question. What about this topic have you considered?

Silas my brother, I am done answering your questions. Want to discuss something, no worries. Want to have a conversation, no problem. Want to state your opinion, that's ok. Want to sit and pose questions and when someone answers ask more questions or tell them they are wrong?....go finish your psychiatry degree.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Silas

"For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." (Rom 14:23)

I think the whole passage is interesting:

Originally Posted by Romans 14

1 Accept those whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person's faith allows them to eat everything, but another person, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted that person. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master they stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 Some consider one day more sacred than another; others consider every day alike. Everyone should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Those who regard one day as special do so to the Lord. Those who eat meat do so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and those who abstain do so to the Lord and give thanks to God. 7 For we do not live to ourselves alone and we do not die to ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " [a]
12 So then, we will all give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother or sister for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed are those who do not condemn themselves by what they approve. 23 But those who have doubts are condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

[Dondi]

Silas,

All through your posts you seem to wear "faith in Christ" like a badge of honor, dangling it in front of people as if to say "nanny-nanny-boo-boo".

Well, it isn't about faith in Christ, it's about love. All through the OT, all God wants is a people to obey Him. He presents blessing and curse. Blessing for obeying and cursing for not obeying. Why? Because to obey the commandments is to Love God and Love others as ourselves. That is the crux of the message, as Jesus explained in Matthew 22:37-40.

What salvation is all about is not the avoidance of Hell, though that is a concern, but it is recognizing that there is One who is a Source of the Love that we need in our lives. And that Source, if we seek it, will give us the ability to Love. That is what the majority of those on this board appear to be seeking. Yet you rail them as if they are the deepest, darkest sinners. You apply passages to them that were meant for those who are not seeking.

The purpose of Christ's sacrifice is to cover what we are lacking, to be sure. However, the thing we ought to seek is not to be saved from Hell, but to be saved from ourselves. And the way God is going to save us is to pull ourselves out of a life of selfishness and into a life of selflessness.

If one only comes to Christ purely to relieve oneself from the threat of Hell, they have missed the point. Rather one ought to come because they realize they are lacking in their lives the love the so desperately need. Jesus said, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

It's not as if the people on this board aren't seeking after God, or the Divine, or the Truth or Something. Yet you are treating them as if they are godless infidels. Your posts are better suited on a athiest forum rather than a comparative religion forum. You are not going to persuade anyone with your brownie points here, nor your badge of honor. If you want people to come to Christ, you are going to have to show them how Christian God is better that what they are seeking. And that is best done here in a spirit of love. Threats of Hell, however legitimate that seems to you, doesn't work with everybody. The reason Jesus talked about Hell is to contrast the opposite of what a life in God is like. Hell is the curse of not having the Divine in one's life. Conversely, Heaven is having a relationship with God.

I ran from God for a long time, even though I knew I was doing it. I knew all about Hell, but that reality wasn't on my mind as I rebelled against God. All my worries were temporal, dealing with this present life. It was only when I realized my life was shot that I turned back to God. I had no peace, I had no direction, I saw myself spiraling down in the morass of my own sins, and the dangers those sins presented. I was living in my own selfish ways, lacking love, lacking confidence in myself, finding out the kind of friends I was hanging with weren't the kind of friends that were benefitting me, rather I saw a lot of backstabbing and being used for their own gain.

I didn't return to God because I feared the threat of hell, but rather I was in a low point in my life and I needed help. In turning to God, I found the Love and forgiveness and restitution I needed to restore my soul in a life in God. That attraction was positive and it changed my life.

Far from thinking that I'm in some exclusive club, I identified with the sinners of the world and realized that there are a lot of hurting people out there who, like me, haven't yet discovered God's unconditional love for them. How God wants to change them also.

All I'm saying, Silas, is that people on this board are seekers and are going to respond much more positively if you show them how God has changed your life rather than how God will damn them if they don't.

[Silas]

Wow Dondi,

I see you put a lot of thought into this post. I do find it odd, however, that you would write about my motives as if you knew what I was doing and why I was doing it. You spoke as if your presumptions about me were correct and that I had disingenous motives. Well, I choose not to defend myself, but instead to answer a few of the cooments you made. My responces are in blue.

What salvation is all about is not the avoidance of Hell, though that is a concern, but it is recognizing that there is One who is a Source of the Love that we need in our lives.

What scriptures do you use to support this comment? I'm of the understanding that salvation is about escaping the wrath that is to come.

That is what the majority of those on this board appear to be seeking.

Sinners seek for God as much as a theif seeks for police. Sure, we may seek for spiritualism and religion, and that sort of things, but we do not seek for Christ for fear that we might find him and realize that our innate understanding that He is God and we must follow Him, be true. That doesnt jive will with our own desier to rule ourselves. We want to be the master of our own fate and captian of our own soul. Before a man could ever seek Christ, the Father must first draw them.

The purpose of Christ's sacrifice is to cover what we are lacking, to be sure.

As a Christian you should not get this mixed up. Please be sure that Christ died to SAVE His people. After all, isnt this what the angel told His mother? Christ really did atone for sinners. Now, therefore, there is no condemnation for those in Christ? Why? Because His scarifice was effacacious - it actually did what it was meant to do. God was really propetiated. The cup of His wrath was drained and the person in Christ is only given grace. God will not judge a person in Christ again because there sins have been paid. Justice was met for those blessed persons!

the thing we ought to seek is not to be saved from Hell, but to be saved from ourselves.

I get what you're trying to convey here, but lets clear it up so that the unsaved will not misunderstand. Here is the truth of the matter: Christ saved us from God and free us from ourselves We were dead in sins and enslaved to our selfish sinful nature and satan. Christ freed us from that and gave us a passion for God's glory. Now we readily say, "God's will be done" as apposed to the past when we lived, "my will be done!"

If one only comes to Christ purely to relieve oneself from the threat of Hell, they have missed the point. Rather one ought to come because they realize they are lacking in their lives the love the so desperately need.

I also understand what you are trying to say here, and I agree to a point. The motivation for coming to Christ should be a Fear-filled converstion. Rather, it should be tear-filled. Why tear-filled? Well, when grace is given and a sinner sees themselves as they are before God, namely, poor, blind, dead in sin, transgressor of God's laws, etc., and is sorry for their sins; not sorry for the consequence, but sorry that they have offended God, then that is true repentence and the kind that will lead a sinner to Christ. Once the sinner is in Christ, however, "the fear of the Lord will keep them," according to God's promises.

It's not as if the people on this board aren't seeking after God, or the Divine, or the Truth or Something. Yet you are treating them as if they are godless infidels.

I have not. And, they are godless infidels. Everyone apart from Christ is. Apart from Christ, you, like myself, are godless, God hating, infildels.

You are not going to persuade anyone with your brownie points here, nor your badge of honor. If you want people to come to Christ, you are going to have to show them how Christian God is better that what they are seeking.

How often do you read your Bible, Christian? You cannot persuade a sinner to come to Christ anymore than you can make a rock speak. All you can do is either plant seeds or water, God will get the increase because God will save (if he is pleased to do so). He will cause blind eyes to see and deaf ears to hear. He will call dead men to life in Christ. Dont try to manipulate a move of God, just be Biblical. Give the gospel and it, with the aid of the Spirit alone, WILL do the work!

Threats of Hell, however legitimate that seems to you, doesn't work with everybody.

I havent made threats about hell. I only tell people the truth, namely if you die unregenerated, you will go to hell. How do you witness? Dont you warn men to flee the wrath that is to come? Or, do you tell them that Jesus loves them?

The reason Jesus talked about Hell is to contrast the opposite of what a life in God is like.

What scripture do you use to support this? I see that Christ spoke about hell as a means and motivation for his sheep to live a life of repentence, rather than living in sin.

I ran from God for a long time, even though I knew I was doing it. I knew all about Hell, but that reality wasn't on my mind as I rebelled against God. All my worries were temporal, dealing with this present life. It was only when I realized my life was shot that I turned back to God. I had no peace, I had no direction, I saw myself spiraling down in the morass of my own sins, and the dangers those sins presented. I was living in my own selfish ways, lacking love, lacking confidence in myself, finding out the kind of friends I was hanging with weren't the kind of friends that were benefitting me, rather I saw a lot of backstabbing and being used for their own gain.

This sounds a lot like my own story, except when I finally stop running and came to Christ, I realized that it was for the first time and that I was never a Christian in the first place. That said though, do you even realize how graceful God has been with you? For where did you get the urge to repent? Why did you feel sorry about your godless life? Dont suppose yourself better and more smarter than others who do not have that "lost son" spirit. God does the drawing and we come. I would incourage you to study scripture more and pray about these things. Do miss out on understand God's grace, because it is precious!

I didn't return to God because I feared the threat of hell, but rather I was in a low point in my life and I needed help.

That sounds very Biblical! Question: Now that you are in Christ? What keeps you from leaving Him? Is it God's promise from Jer 32:40..."I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me."

[Silas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think the whole passage is interesting:

Interesting indeed! Do you think the whole passage conflicts with my orignal point?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Silas

Interesting indeed! Do you think the whole passage conflicts with my orignal point?

I think the point of the passage is that we give glory to God in all of our actions when they are carried out in the Spirit of Christ, which is the Spirit of Love.

Originally Posted by 1 Cor 13

1 If I speak in human or angelic tongues, [a] but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body [to hardship] that I may boast, [b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

The difficulty I have with your approach is that it focuses too entirely on the afterlife, while I believe the Gospels and the Cross and the Resurrection are very much about our life here on earth.

Do you think that the only reason one should accept Christ is out of fear of damnation in the afterlife?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think the point of the passage is that we give glory to God in all of our actions when they are carried out in the Spirit of Christ, which is the Spirit of Love.


The difficulty I have with your approach is that it focuses too entirely on the afterlife, while I believe the Gospels and the Cross and the Resurrection are very much about our life here on earth.

Do you think that the only reason one should accept Christ is out of fear of damnation in the afterlife?

I believe the only reason one should recieve Christ is because God commands us to repent and believe upon Him. My "approach" has nothing to do with the after life. Rather, it is about absoulte nonconformity to the world and about being transformed into Christ' image whereby we may fulfill our existance, namely to live to God's glory. We were made by Him and for Him. To live any other way is vain and a total waste of life.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Silas

I believe the only reason one should recieve Christ is because God commands us to repent and believe upon Him. My "approach" has nothing to do with the after life. Rather, it is about absoulte nonconformity to the world and about being transformed into Christ' image whereby we may fulfill our existance, namely to live to God's glory. We were made by Him and for Him. To live any other way is vain and a total waste of life.

That's good to hear. For some reason it seems that all of your posts are about telling people that they are worthless and will burn in hell. Must be some kind of communication problem.

How do you live to God's glory?