Why would a God who is perfect create an imperfect world?

robocombot · 04-05-2005, 01:55 AM

Simple question. Maybe the answer is simple.

All of us here who believe there is only one God also believe that God is perfect.

No doubt we all also believe the world is imperfect, in that evil is very real and that humankind is rebelling against God.

However, the reason for that imperfection we may have different views on.

Most of us here would believe in satan/iblis/lucifer (although we see him differently) and the answer that relates to us now may be that evil is allowed for us to be tempted by him.

But I would like a focus on why evil was allowed/planned/tolerated to enter the world in the first place. Why create an imperfect world.

dauer · 04-05-2005, 02:26 AM

[quote=robocombot]

Quote:

No doubt we all also believe the world is imperfect, in that evil is very real and that humankind is rebelling against God.

That's a pretty big assumption. I don't necessarily believe the world is imperfect. If God created the world, then the world is exactly as God wishes it and is thus perfect. Are humans rebelling against God? I don't know that we are. We may all be doing exactly what God expects for each of us in each moment, each to our own capacity for that time.

Quote:

But I would like a focus on why evil was allowed/planned/tolerated to enter the world in the first place. Why create an imperfect world.

That's a good question, or in my above model, why humans were created to percieve a perfect world as imperfect.

robocombot · 04-05-2005, 02:33 AM

i never thought to see it that way, thankyou.

isnt there a Proverb of Solomon, which i paraphrase:

God created everything for his purpose, even the wicked for punishment.

dauer · 04-05-2005, 03:02 AM

I am not certain. I'm not very familiar with Proverbs. I was not commiting myself to that particular way of thought but placing it in contrast with the other. I am unwilling to settle on either possibility. But I find both just equally compelling.

Dauer

Bandit · 04-05-2005, 07:51 AM

i think God made it perfect.

Man is the one who messes things up. I dont see earth as a perfect place. But I believe God is perfect, just, holy & righteous.

path_of_one · 04-05-2005, 08:34 AM

I believe God created a perfect world, and that the creation of God is still perfect. In that, what humans do not choose through free will is exactly as it is meant to be. I look at each rose in my garden, each tree in my local mountains, each rain drop... and it is all perfect and beautiful. Even illness, death, etc. is not imperfection to me. They are processes that are also imbued with life.

I believe much of our suffering and the world's imperfections are a result of humans' choices.

I believe that us humans tend to fail to turn consistently toward God, to listen to the Divine voice that tells us in each moment the path of best action and that helps us grow spiritually. It is not just about moral codes for me, but rather about the best action to take in all things. My experience has been that when I humble myself, still my mind, and open my heart with a willingness to follow this path of best action, I am aware of the right choices. It's up to me to be disciplined in listening to and acting in accordance with this Divine voice.

I truly believe that if everyone in the world truly listened to God, loved one another and loved God with all their hearts and minds and souls, the world would come close to the perfection it is naturally without the influence of our poor choices. Idealistic? Yes, but I say that without an ideal, we have no inspiration. In acting idealistically, things could only get better.

farhan · 04-05-2005, 11:01 AM

Well what if the imperfection that we percieve is not an imperfection , but just an anomaly that we cant comprehend , & is still a part of the equation ??

As for Satan , according to Islamic thought , he disobeyed God when God asked him to bow to Adam , saying that I am superior than him . God said " go down , heaven is not for U " . Satan said something like " Give me time to prove myself " . And permission was granted by God . The problem is that if God didnt permit him , he would have reason to say that even God didnt allow me to prove my point . Not a good thing to be said about the most just , all merciful .

Humans , according to sufi thought , R formed of a soul ( that is pure ) that has been sent down into a material body , which is the source of imperfection /anomaly. But thats body is also the source of our wild freewill that makes us unique .

So again , I would see it all as part of the program . Though we tend to use our freewill very selfishly & spread menace around us , but still , thats what the life/test is supposed to be , leaving all the selfishness/egocenterdness behind , obeying God & working for the betterment of all humanity . Thats the reason why God has been running this world with a minimum interference policy . Though sometimes everybody thinks " why doesnt God stop them " , but thats what freewill is all about , making right choices .

I, Brian · 04-05-2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farhan

Well what if the imperfection that we percieve is not an imperfection , but just an anomaly that we cant comprehend , & is still a part of the equation ??

Indeed.

All too often it seems we humans seem to presume our perception should be The Objective Standard Against Which All Things Are Measured.

bananabrain · 04-06-2005, 11:44 AM

why does the world have to be perfect? if we are imperfect, that is because such conditions are necessary for the exercise of free-will. that's what i think the sages were getting at when they suggested the universe as a way for the Divine to Reflect.

b'shalom

bananabrain

PluckyAli · 04-06-2005, 04:46 PM

This is a very fundamental question and this question is a very big puzzle in my mind.This question still bothers me.Often this question leads ppl to atheism.But the evidence for God existence is far more than this one unsolved puzzle.

Firstly i disagree with ppl who said World is perfect.The world is not perfect in many ways.For e.g it's only because of second law of therodynamics we have so much environmetnal crisis.We can't convert completely heat into work.Much of the heat is lost causing environment pollution.And the ozone layer is breaking because of this.And this is also obvious for human beings.
It's obvious God didnot make this world a perfect world or the present world is not a perfect world.Free will leads to imperfection in world.But there is a prob.What exactly is free will?.Does not the God knows what ppl r doing or will do?.There is a theory of quantum mechanics that says
"If you know everything about the present,You can know everything about the future".Perhaps religious ppl call it fate.But why is there an evil in the world?.
Satan disobeys God,that's fine but again doesnot the God know in advance satan is going to disobey?.I mean God made satan in this way or it was some other reason?.or you call it some enigmatic free will?.I believe there must be some logical answer to all the questions that comes into human mind.

Faithfulservant · 04-07-2005, 05:00 AM

I do not believe that the human mind can comprehend God and his ways.

PluckyAli · 04-07-2005, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I do not believe that the human mind can comprehend God and his ways.

"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it's comprehensible"---Einstein.

Knowledge · 04-07-2005, 08:19 AM

Robocombot,

In the opening sentence of your post, I noticed that you said this:

"Simple question. Maybe a simple answer."

I find that pretty funny, but also very true. Here's the answer to your question by the way:

Who ever said that God created a imperfect world? The truth is, God created EVERYTHING; both seen and unseen, and it was PERFECT! But, just as there are consequences for breaking laws in the natural, breaking spiritual laws caused certain effects to take place. The effect from braking God's law was the sin curse. It was this curse that caused imperfection. God however, has a plan to fix everything. Come to Jesus that you may know and be apart of his plan.

Later,

Knowledge

Marcion · 04-11-2005, 12:15 PM

Most early Christians were divided because of this very subject. The Judeo-Christians of Peter/James/John's apostilic line believed the God Yahweh created the world, but the Pauline Christians believed Satanael created the world after he was banished from the Kingdom of Light, and boasted that he was the only God (Yahweh). Gnostics would also agree with the latter statement, just in a different way, while Orthadox christians would have no trouble agreeing with the former one.

I believe the world is imperfect yes. I believe in God and Satan, that Satan was the first created being, the highest archangel he was almost equal to God in that respect. He wants to be like God and so he created his own heaven to be like God's Heaven and our material universe is a part of his kingdom that he created, after his banishment from the Light in which he rebelled. He is capable of directing our own destinies and our fates. He is our father and god who created us. Those who wish to follow him may do so freely.

I do not believe the Father wanted Satanael or the angelic host he took away to be annihilated, I think the Father still loves his children and just let them go after the rebellion, because our Father in Heaven is all compassionate and kind. I think He always gives His children a chance. I do not think Satan and his angels are completely evil, but they are often hostile and cruel, especially to mankind who they rule over. I have sorrow and remorse for Satanael actually (just as I think God does), who was once the most beautiful angel in Heaven. But with all that sorrow there is also shame and disgust for him.

In all do respect, I believe the Heavenly Father is all perfect and Good, and He wishes no ill will on any creature. I believe that He is incapable of causing pain and suffering, for that is not His way. The Father realized what Satan created and eventually He decided to send the young archangel Michael to the world in the form of Jesus Christ to help those of mankind who wish to leave Satan's universe and come to live with the Heavenly Father in eternal Peace and Solace. It is up to mankind to who they wish to follow.

Anyway to answer the topic question would God create an imperfect universe, the answer I believe is no. It was not God who created it, but the Elohim (angels) of the old testament with their archangel Satanael....

freind · 04-22-2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PluckyAli

This is a very fundamental question and this question is a very big puzzle in my mind.This question still bothers me.Often this question leads ppl to atheism.But the evidence for God existence is far more than this one unsolved puzzle.

Firstly i disagree with ppl who said World is perfect.The world is not perfect in many ways.For e.g it's only because of second law of therodynamics we have so much environmetnal crisis.We can't convert completely heat into work.Much of the heat is lost causing environment pollution.And the ozone layer is breaking because of this.And this is also obvious for human beings.
It's obvious God didnot make this world a perfect world or the present world is not a perfect world.Free will leads to imperfection in world.But there is a prob.What exactly is free will?.Does not the God knows what ppl r doing or will do?.There is a theory of quantum mechanics that says
"If you know everything about the present,You can know everything about the future".Perhaps religious ppl call it fate.But why is there an evil in the world?.
Satan disobeys God,that's fine but again doesnot the God know in advance satan is going to disobey?.I mean God made satan in this way or it was some other reason?.or you call it some enigmatic free will?.I believe there must be some logical answer to all the questions that comes into human mind.

hi Ali,
i believe that this creation is perfect and that all the bad is due to mankinds [and jins] sins. it is we who are responsible for the pollution of the ozone etc, and that fits into the equation of perfect as it will be unperfect for us not to suffer consequences of our evil and irresponsible deeds.
although God knows the future, that is no reason why God should not allow this perfect creation to exist, as it will not be Gods fault when creatures with free will commit evil as they have free will and for the fact that they have been pre-warned by God, of the consequences of evil. and if its not Gods fault, then faultlessness is...perfection