why you think Muslims invite you to Islam?!

[dauer]

Alex,

Jews don't proselytize.

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by dauer

Alex,

Jews don't proselytize.

In fact, if you want to be Jewish, you have to be persistent. You have to ask to convert, ask again, and ask again... (three times.)

[17th Angel]

I knew that post was coming lol... Couldn't edit my own post so I thought everyone would just ignore me as per norm :P But, you caught me out.... lol My bad.

[dauer]

Dawud,

that is not always the case anymore and I'm not certain that was ever an entirely universal practice, though it used to be more prevalent.

-- Dauer

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

What a great thread (shakes head).

Allah (swt) said there is no compulsion in religion. He also tells us that He will tell us the difference between us on the Day of Judgement.

The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said you have your religion and we have ours, he even said this to the Pagans of Mecca.

The Prophet also told us that Muslims would split into 73 sects.

Once the Prophet died Muslims started the murderous conquering and forced converting.

Yet to this day some Muslims talk of a big peaceful huggy world full of nothing but Muslims.

How on earth can anyone translate the words of Allah (swt) and our beloved Prophet into the whole world must be or should be Muslim? It makes no sense.

If Allah (swt) intended for the whole world to be Muslim then He would not tell us repeatedly in the Quran that He will tell us the difference between us on the Day of Judgement because there would be nothing to tell as we would all be the same religion!!

Hi Muslimwoman. I have a couple questions for you.

First, your views would seem very much at variance with our friend Hado here, who unless I’m mistaken represents pretty much the Muslim mainstream. In fact, your views sound pretty radical. So what place do you find in your community, as a woman with these opinions? And how do people (especially women) with your viewpoint fare in the various Muslim communities you know about?

I think you’re very courageous to admit the obvious: that Islam became an imperial religion, and a political prize among rival factions, almost as soon as Muhammad (pbuh) died. And I have sympathy with your desire to rescue the Prophet (pbuh) from the imperial weight of tradition. Your point of view seems to me very much akin to many people, both non-Christian and Christian, who would like to rescue Jesus from the oppression of dogmatic Christianity (the bookshelves are daily filling with the various attempts).

At the same time, you would appear to face the same problems as those who would rescue Jesus. Everything you know about Muhammad (pbuh) is filtered through texts shaped by tradition. Does the Quran really admit of the reading you would like to give it? When it comes to rescuing Jesus, one is in the ambiguous position of unearthing the real coin buried among the counterfeit. Overall, the text is weighted on the side of the dogmatic tradition that shaped it. Are you in a similar situation with the Quran? Or do you feel you can assimilate every word of it to your reading, and against the tradition?

Shanti.

[Dream]

You have to ask to convert,...

I no longer think that converting is a good way to approach any religion. The purebloods always get all excited, throw wreaths about your neck, think they love you like family. This is not quite as bad as purposeful manipulation through love, but it still fogs up the whole process. You know good & well that family is family, and religion is not family; but original purebloods don't understand that. Having grown up in a religious community, they tend to think it is a family -- but its not. Anybody tells you otherwise is inexperienced or a manipulator. The thing to do is just become a part of the religion and convert yourself without asking. Never ask permission, because then the singers and dancers come and you get singled out for special treatment. You won't know where you stand with them for a good 4 or 5 years.

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by dauer

Dawud,

that is not always the case anymore and I'm not certain that was ever an entirely universal practice, though it used to be more prevalent.

-- Dauer

There are different kinds of Jews, so yeah, I guess it depends.

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by Dream

I no longer think that converting is a good way to approach any religion. The purebloods always get all excited, throw wreaths about your neck, think they love you like family. This is not quite as bad as purposeful manipulation through love, but it still fogs up the whole process. You know good & well that family is family, and religion is not family; but original purebloods don't understand that. Having grown up in a religious community, they tend to think it is a family -- but its not. Anybody tells you otherwise is inexperienced or a manipulator. The thing to do is just become a part of the religion and convert yourself without asking. Never ask permission, because then the singers and dancers come and you get singled out for special treatment. You won't know where you stand with them for a good 4 or 5 years.

Interesting. So just don't tell anyone you converted?

[dauer]

Dawud,

even disregarding denominational differences, that is not always the case. It is a custom that most likely began in response to the harsh penalties for non-Jews converting to Judaism. Before that time Judaism didn't openly proselytize but it was more open to people interested in conversion. At one time it became very widespread but now it is less common. There are still some rabbis who do it but it seems more prevalent that a rabbi will test an individual's sincerity through a direct conversation rather than an antiquated minhag.

-- Dauer

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by dauer

Dawud,

even disregarding denominational differences, that is not always the case. It is a custom that most likely began in response to the harsh penalties for non-Jews converting to Judaism. Before that time Judaism didn't openly proselytize but it was more open to people interested in conversion. At one time it became very widespread but now it is less common. There are still some rabbis who do it but it seems more prevalent that a rabbi will test an individual's sincerity through a direct conversation rather than an antiquated minhag.

-- Dauer

Makes sense. In some countries, or at least one that I can think of, Muslims aren't allowed to convert to anything, only non-Muslims are allowed to change religion. I found out when I was talking to someone who wanted to become a Baha'i. She found out in the process that she wasn't allowed to because Muslims weren't allowed to change religion in that country.

[Dawud]

I'm not trying to start controversy, just sharing some information. I think there ought to be religious liberty in every country, not for some, but for everyone.

[17th Angel]

I got a peep at Allahs profile :\

Question 17: Whom is deserving of thou Love and mercy o' mighty one!

A) Jews []
B) Christians []
C) Jedi Knights []
D) Rastas []
E) Hindus []
F) Muslims []
G) Buddhists []
H) Sikhs []
I) Atheists []
J) Chuck Norris Fan Club []
K) Bahai's []
L) Mormons []
M) Pagans []
N) Taoists []
O) Shinto []
P) Janism []
Q) Zoroastrainism []
R) Unitarianism []
S) All of the above, and the rest! [X]

Allahs notes:

This profile question is along the lines of a question that was once asked of my prophet Muhammad(saws)...... Someone once asked Muhammad(saws), "What people does Allah love most?" And he replied to this question... "-ALL- mankind belong to Allah, therefore the most favoured by Allah is the one who does good...."

(chuckle, apologies for my humour :\)

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by dauer

Alex,

Jews don't proselytize.

Originally Posted by Dawud

In fact, if you want to be Jewish, you have to be persistent. You have to ask to convert, ask again, and ask again... (three times.)

So the children are NOT considered Jew until they ask three times to be converted... what a relief! I saw Judaism as a form of institutional racism because I thought the method of proselytizing was done solely through the raising of the children. But if the adherents of Judaism do NOT do this proselytizing then I stand corrected. If the child is truly NOT a proselyte until he/she asks for it three times... that is impressive. No more circumcised babies... no more baptised babies... no more babies indoctrinated by a means other than their own will. What a relief.

[dauer]

Dawud,

I'm not sure if I was clear but the penalties were not from within Judaism but from outside of Judaism.



Cyberpi,

Jewish children are not proselytes. They're Jews.

[17th Angel]

People of the tribe of Judah...