Will Europe soon have a total ban on niqab & burka?

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Israel has an amazing arsenal of weapons and yet has not bombed the poo out of the tunnels .... ever asked yourself why?

They have frequently done so.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste sally,

i hope you are well.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hamas follows the tactics of the IRA so closely I often wonder if they were trained by the IRA.

they were both trained by the KGB.... and we have documented evidence of it from the Andropov International School. check out "The World Was Going Our Way: Secret History of the KGB in the Third World" by Andrew/Mitroken and you can read for yourself how the KGB trained and armed the PLO, IRA, HAMAS and the rest.

metta,

~v

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

They have frequently done so.

Sorry but that's just propaganda. This was during the attack on Gaza last January. The article says:

"barely four days after Israel stopped dumping hundreds of tons of missiles and bombs on Gaza's southern border with Egypt."

Yet they still missed .. wow it's like an action movie where 30 men fire sub machine guns at the hero and they all miss!!!

Do you know how much damage "hundreds of tons" of explosives can do? Yet the smugglers were back in their tunnels within 4 days.

So as I was suggesting ... if Israel wanted to actually destroy the tunnels it has the knowledge and means to do so, yet it chooses not to.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

they were both trained by the KGB.... and we have documented evidence of it from the Andropov International School. check out "The World Was Going Our Way: Secret History of the KGB in the Third World" by Andrew/Mitroken and you can read for yourself how the KGB trained and armed the PLO, IRA, HAMAS and the rest.

Salam V

I'm very well thank you. How are you?

Now that sounds like a book worth reading, thanks for the recommendation.

[c0de]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

... if Israel wanted to actually destroy the tunnels it has the knowledge and means to do so, yet it chooses not to.

Before you destroy the tunnels, you have to locate them. In order to do that efficiently, you need a new breed of ground-penetrating low-frequency radar which the IDF does not have.

p.s. The Israelis are working on fiber-optics to solve the problem, but that's new tech as well, which as far as I know is not operational yet.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by c0de

Before you destroy the tunnels, you have to locate them. In order to do that efficiently, you need a new breed of ground-penetrating low-frequency radar which the IDF does not have.

Hmmm maybe Israel could ask America how they managed to destroy so many tunnels in Vietnam without using ground-penetrating low-frequency radar?

So the Israeli government doesn't have an intelligence service or boast of the number of Palestinian spies it has ... even in Hamas??

Amazing then that google has so many photos (usually taken by journalists) of these tunnels knocking about and yet Israel appears not to be able to locate them. Maybe they should ask the BBC where they are?!

You also forget that the tunnels come out in Egypt and tunnels go both ways, you can follow them from Egypt into Gaza .... now if Mossad can go to Dubai and murder someone then surely they could manage to nip over to to Egypt and locate tunnel entrances?

Sorry but it's a crock imo and they need the tunnels and the rockets to keep the "we must defend ourselves" line going. There are numerous military methods to locate and destroy those tunnels without the need for up to date technology.

[Muslimwoman]

Of course the other alternative would be to nip to Tel Aviv university (who have done a vast amount of work on such radars) and ask to borrow their ground penetrating radars, which they have had since the 80's so I feel sure have been developed since that time to a good enough standard to detect tunnels ..

Geophysical Exploration in Israel: The 1983 Field Season

Failing that they could ring one of their Western allies and ask to borrow one.

Gosh there are so many solutions when you put your mind to it.

[c0de]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Of course the other alternative would be to nip to Tel Aviv university (who have done a vast amount of work on such radars) and ask to borrow their ground penetrating radars, which they have had since the 80's so I feel sure have been developed since that time to a good enough standard to detect tunnels ..

That radar does not penetrate deep enough to detect tunnels. Just ask the US border security who are dealing with Cartel tunnels. The militants (+ cartel) know what specific depth the tunnels need to be built to avoid those old radars.

There are numerous military methods to locate and destroy those tunnels without the need for up to date technology.

Like?

... America how they managed to destroy so many tunnels in Vietnam...

Actually, no, they didn't.

Cu Chi tunnels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All American strategies to deal with the tunnels failed.

now if Mossad can go to Dubai and murder someone then surely they could manage to nip over to to Egypt and locate tunnel entrances?

You mean the same Mossad that embarrassed itself so thoroughly that its super-assassins were getting air-time on CNN for weeks afterwords? Who could not even manage to avoid the hotel security cameras? That mossad?

Amazing then that google has so many photos (usually taken by journalists) of these tunnels knocking about and yet Israel appears not to be able to locate them. Maybe they should ask the BBC where they are?!

So militant PR success is proof of IDF complicity?

That's your argument?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by c0de

Like?

Will come back to this another time, it's 5:40am here and I need to sleep a couple of hours.

One to think about though is the method they use to assassinate people in Gaza ... ultra violet paint which can be detected by helicopter. Considering the Shin Bet boast of "thousands of collaborators" one would think getting the collaborators to mark which buildings or areas have entrances to tunnels might be an idea.

Originally Posted by c0de

All American strategies to deal with the tunnels failed.

Not so. If you read the link you provided you will see:

"By 1969, B-52s were freed from bombing North Vietnam and started "carpet bombing" Củ Chi and the rest of the Iron Triangle. Ultimately it proved successful but futile. Towards the end of the war, the tunnels were so heavily bombed that some portions actually caved in and other sections were exposed. But by that time, they had succeeded in protecting the local guerrilla units in "surviving to fight another day"."

Bear in mind that the Vietnam tunnels were made of hard clay so could withstand more downward pressure.

This means the stragegy of carpet bombing worked, it was simply used too late in the war to have any significant effect on the outcome of the war.

Originally Posted by c0de

Who could not even manage to avoid the hotel security cameras? That mossad?

And how many have they successfully managed to murder without being on CNN? And in how many countries around the world?

Due to the CNN reports the world now knows Israel is a law unto itself and it's teams of assassins will kill you anywhere in the world if you mess with them, even in the places you think you are safe ... sounds like a damned successful military and propaganda operation to me.

Originally Posted by c0de

So militant PR success is proof of IDF complicity?

That's your argument?

No my argument is that if these tunnels are such a huge secret that only a few select Hamas members and the BBC know about them, then perhaps the Israeli intelligence service needs a refresher course.

[c0de]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

This means the stragegy of carpet bombing worked.

Do you realize the IAF doesnt have a single A/C capable of carpet bombing?

one would think getting the collaborators to mark which buildings or areas have entrances to tunnels might be an idea.

That's your suggestion of an easy alternative?

That would require total intelligence penetration of the militants.

And how many have they successfully managed to murder without being on CNN? And in how many countries around the world?

Due to the CNN reports the world now knows Israel is a law unto itself and it's teams of assassins will kill you anywhere in the world if you mess with them, even in the places you think you are safe ... sounds like a damned successful military and propaganda operation to me.

First of all, assassinating people isn't hard. Protecting people from assassination is.

Secondly, The world already knew that Israel is prone to conduct assassinations. What it now knows, is that if it does it so carelessly, then the political fallout will be as severe as it was.

No my argument is that if these tunnels are such a huge secret that only a few select Hamas members and the BBC know about them, then perhaps the Israeli intelligence service needs a refresher course.

You have an extremely fanciful conception of intelligence outfits. As for the BBC, do you think the militants gave them an address leading straight to that tunnel? And they just drove up with coffee and donuts? (or in this case, tea and fallaffels?)

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by c0de

Do you realize the IAF doesnt have a single A/C capable of carpet bombing?

So Israel has the military capability to "bomb Lebanon back to the stone age" but can't bomb a few tunnels!! Interesting.

Originally Posted by c0de

That would require total intelligence penetration of the militants.

As they boast collaborators in the upper echelons of Hamas it really wouldn't be difficult to carry out such an operation.

Originally Posted by c0de

First of all, assassinating people isn't hard. Protecting people from assassination is.

Who said it was hard? It's just murder, happens every day. However you were suggesting Mossad are a bunch of numbskulls who couldn't find their bums with both hands and I was simply pointing out that they have carried out MANY successful kidnap and murder missions.

Originally Posted by c0de

Secondly, The world already knew that Israel is prone to conduct assassinations. What it now knows, is that if it does it so carelessly, then the political fallout will be as severe as it was.

There was no political fallout for the assassination, only for the potential embarrassment to foreign governments.

Originally Posted by c0de

You have an extremely fanciful conception of intelligence outfits.

Ah I see, so in your world view their intelligence sources can find out where some of their most wanted men in the world are hiding, go there, kidnap or murder them but can't find out where a few tunnels right under their noses are??

The whole point of intelligence outfits is to gather and analyse information, in this case from their miriad of spies and collaborators (as is their boast) ... it's not actually rocket science!!

The only reason not to bomb the tunnels is because they are of political use, be that strategic or for propaganda. The best example of such a policy is the trains going to concentration camps, which were never bombed despite the allies knowing exactly what was going on and where the train tracks were.

Originally Posted by c0de

As for the BBC, do you think the militants gave them an address leading straight to that tunnel? And they just drove up with coffee and donuts? (or in this case, tea and fallaffels?)

you seem to be missing the point. Whilst I agree the BBC employees couldn't look at a map and say there, there and there Israel boasts of agents deep in Hamas and collaborators in every community in Gaza. How then can the BBC get within a zilliion miles of the tunnels but agents and collaborators can't? Is is just plain bad luck that every single person involved with the tunnels (locating, digging, moving goods, etc) is a loyal Hamas supporter who would let their family be killed before revealing any information about the tunnels??!!

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Sorry but that's just propaganda. This was during the attack on Gaza last January. The article says:

"barely four days after Israel stopped dumping hundreds of tons of missiles and bombs on Gaza's southern border with Egypt."

Yet they still missed ..

Not at all. They HIT, and collapsed, all the tunnels. But it did not take more than a couple days to dig new ones. You are apparently advocating that Israel carpet-bomb that area, not just once, but continually, every day. And I'm supposed to believe that you wouldn't be wailing about those cruel nasty Israelis if they did so.

[c0de]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

So Israel has the military capability to "bomb Lebanon back to the stone age" but can't bomb a few tunnels!! Interesting.

Your own example of Vietnam showed that even the US required their ENTIRE FLEET of carpet bombers to be effective against tunnels. I told you the IAF does not have a single A/C capable of carpet bombing.

As for Lebanon and urban bombing, that is a totally different scenario. You only attack key buildings (power plants, water stations).

The whole point of intelligence outfits is to gather and analyse information, in this case from their miriad of spies and collaborators (as is their boast) ... it's not actually rocket science!!

Actually, it's much further up the ladder than "rocket science."

You don't just gather intelligence, but you have to crack it. And decryption is a complex art. Unlike "rocket science," where you just have to get the formula for the fuels right (and the tolerances for the materials) decryption requires abstract thinking. It is very intuitive, and not everyone (even the best mathematicians) are capable of it.

As for rocket science, I am sure if you add up the classified budget of the NSA alone (not even mentioning all the other intel agencies of the US) you will get a figure that is much higher then NASA's. So no it's not "rocket science" at all.

As they boast collaborators in the upper echelons of Hamas it really wouldn't be difficult to carry out such an operation.

You make it seem as if the Mossad is controlling the Hamas leadership.

Who said it was hard? It's just murder, happens every day. However you were suggesting Mossad are a bunch of numbskulls who couldn't find their bums with both hands and I was simply pointing out that they have carried out MANY successful kidnap and murder missions.

You just invalidated your own argument. Did you or did you not use the assassinations as proof of Mossad's competence? Yes, you did. Now you are saying it's not hard at all.

You are also now supporting my argument that the Mossad screwed up majorly by managing to both up something that was not "hard."

There was no political fallout for the assassination, only for the potential embarrassment to foreign governments.

Australia, a staunch ally of Israel even abstained from a UN vote criticizing Israel because of this assassination. And all over what? Some Hamas dude that in the final analysis was a drop in an ocean? The incident was a major embarrassment for Israel.

The only reason not to bomb the tunnels is because they are of political use, be that strategic or for propaganda.

Right, and you have proof of this?

The best example of such a policy is the trains going to concentration camps, which were never bombed despite the allies knowing exactly what was going on and where the train tracks were.

... I'm gonna pretend I didn't read that.

you seem to be missing the point. Whilst I agree the BBC employees couldn't look at a map and say there, there and there Israel boasts of agents deep in Hamas and collaborators in every community in Gaza. How then can the BBC get within a zilliion miles of the tunnels but agents and collaborators can't? Is is just plain bad luck that every single person involved with the tunnels (locating, digging, moving goods, etc) is a loyal Hamas supporter who would let their family be killed before revealing any information about the tunnels??!!

And those tunnels that are discovered are bombed. But like Bob said, it's not hard to build tunnels. I assume you have also conceded the point about detection radars.

[Diagoras]

Congratulations today to France for passing into law by 246 votes to 1 to ban these ridiculous face coverings.
The perception of the majority of westerners is that those that wear them are insulting our values. And I think this a correct view to hold. That not many women wear them is not an excuse. Going around naked is a choice even fewer make and they are routinely arrested.
There seem to be two categories of women I see wearing them. Those from these religiously dogmatic families with roots in the Islamic world....the angry black ghosts that only seem to hate western values. And those not very attractive white women with low esteem for their body image and a need to test their parents love. I think we should bow to neither group.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Diagoras

The perception of the majority of westerners is that those that wear them are insulting our values.

Not this westerner.

I try not to get worked up over a piece of fabric.

[shawn]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Not this westerner.

I try not to get worked up over a piece of fabric.

You would if they forced your wife to wear one.