Women?

[PluckyAli]

@Vajradhara And Mansio,
Either I am blind or You people in following code of conduct

Faith specific boards are generally a place to share thoughts, ask general questions, and enter interested discussions regarding that faith. Please note that faith boards are not intended as a place for aggressive criticism of the said faith.

I am so idiot i thought islamic board is a faith specific board.Oh my god i want to kill my self.

Actually i am more busy then the word busy these days.I can't explain anything more.And mansio was behaving so intelligently that i didn't find it necesary to ask him whether he was a scholar or not.Want me to explain more?

[thipps]

Originally Posted by mansio

Hello Vajradhara

There are several topics in the Quran that relate to a 7th century cultural milieu and could be easily ignored by modern Muslims (the veil for example).

its called modesty. you dont throw that out the window just cause alot of time has passed.

The problem is the Quran is not considered a 7th century theological treatise written by Muhammad, but the eternal Word of God revealed in clear Arabic.

The problem is that you are obviously not aware that the Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) was an illiterate. He could neither read not write.
by the way, what is your religious background, if any?

[dayaa]

hello/salam

as far as i know the quran only requires modest dress. the details for the exact dress requirements are from hadith and i seem to remember reading that actually it is a weak hadith. however, i'm not quite sure why everyone is so obsessed with islamic dress. why do people consider it to be abusive of women? i LOVE my islamic dress . i might have some doubts about other things, but this isn't one of them. i feel free wearing that. i feel respectable. i feel that i can go out and speak with people as a person without feeling that people are looking at me in a wrong way. actually i feel it is quite smart too. when i look at so many women who seem to think the less they wear the more beautiful they are....hhhhmmmm....no comment.
concerning the wife beating....to be honest i've never known anyone to do it. i've heard of it, but never seen it. it is definitely not the norm. i think what i object to a bit in the idea is the idea that somehow it's the woman who is possibly "troublesome". i have seen a few "troublesome" women, i must admit...but to be honest i've seen far more troublesome men. i don't know quite how life was in the time of the prophet mohammad (pbuh) but i certainly think we have a cultural problem in the present day islamic system. i believe that a woman should respect her husband....i find the behaviour of women in the modern western world to be appalling (in general although of course that does not apply to all) but in the muslim world these days men seem to expect that it is their RIGHT to be respected and forget that a pre-requisite of being respected is being respectable! of course one could argue that such men will get their just deserts in the hereafter....but that's not much consolation to the women who have to live with them here and now.
well, having put my foot in it again, i think i've said enough for now

[mansio]

My last post was a response to Vajradhara about the cultural milieu of the revelation. Slavery being no longer relevant I mentioned the veil as an example.
This is an interfaith forum. If you want to change it into a faith forum then I'll leave. But I'll wait first that you drop the "inter" from the word "interfaith".

I said, still in response to Vajradhara, that IF the Quran would have been written by (or under the direction of) Muhammad (or anybody else) then things like the "beating" of the wife could be easily ignored by 21st century Muslims.
But as the Quran is considered the very Word of God then what is written is written and embarrassing things cannot be easily explained away.

[Staffy]

Originally Posted by mansio

things like the "beating" of the wife could be easily ignored by 21st century Muslims.
But as the Quran is considered the very Word of God then what is written is written and embarrassing things cannot be easily explained away.

Dear mansio you are right this is an interfaith forum.......The point of my earlier post was also to explain the translation of "beat" please do read it as to get a better understanding...........That verse is still relivent today and the system is still quite aplicable and will be until judgment day as such are the words of the Almighty..........In Islam you shouldent beat your wife EVER unless she is a adulterous(but then she wouldent be you wife any more most likely)....... and then lashings are subscribed(the same is for a man).......It is said Judge a man on how he treats his wife and through his truthfullness and wisdom.........So you see women have an extreamly high position in Islam and have similar rights over their Husbands as their husbands have over them.......Hope this shed some light..........Staffy

[mansio]

Hello Staffy

For a wife to have similar rights as her husband is an "extremely high position in Islam".
But for other people I belong to, it is the normal position of the wife.

[Staffy]

Originally Posted by mansio

Hello Staffy

For a wife to have similar rights as her husband is an "extremely high position in Islam".
But for other people I belong to, it is the normal position of the wife.

Hello Mansio,
Do you need to mock Islam to make a point? please back your claim up with evidence to provide a solid debate.......Otherwise if you havent got anything nice to say kindly direct your energys elsewere...........Staffy

[dayaa]

hello/salam all

mansio....i think the purpose of these forums is to discuss and to learn and to bring up ideas and problems.....not to criticize nor to offend. maybe it is not your intention to be offensive, but sometimes the same thing can be said as a question for example rather than a comment thus avoiding offence.

thipps....i also think that in answering potentially offensive comments it shows more decorum to simply request politely that the person concerned refrain from being offensive. if you start answering in a similar tone it all just disintegrates into a slanging match, which is really a bit pointless.

regarding your comment about mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate....from the point of view of a questioner from outside the faith, this is something rather questionable and needs some clarification. i often hear muslim lecturers stressing the fact that mohammad (pbuh) was illiterate and sometimes even making wild claims that he had no access to jewish or christian scriptures (presumably because he could not read)....however this is somewhat misleading and anyone who investigates further will find these comments to be misleading and will wonder about the motives of those who make such rash claims.

mohammad (pbuh) was illiterate.....but that does not mean he was "thick". in the culture of the time most people were illiterate, but they were an intelligent people well versed in poetry and able to memorise and recite vast amounts of information. as many illiterate cultures, people were very "focused" mentally. prophet mohammad (pbuh) also definitely did have access to both jews and christians. i am not trying to suggest that mohammad (pbuh) made up the quran himself, but it seems to me that it would be better to look for the validity of the quran in its meaning rather than stressing its miraculousness because mohammad (pbuh) was illiterate because this is a somewhat debateable point and therefore not convincing to an "outsider".

[mansio]

Dayaa

Your opinion about Muhammad's illiteracy is word for word what I've always expressed on Muslim forums.
Let's now wait for reactions and see if double standards are applied.

[PluckyAli]

The problem is the Quran is not considered a 7th century theological treatise written by Muhammad,but the eternal Word of God revealed in clear Arabic.

Irrelevant.Due to breaking of code of conduct.I want you to leave this thread.

The problem is that you are obviously not aware that the Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) was an illiterate. He could neither read not write.

It's ok if your replying this but that's irrelevant to thread and that's what the people like mansio are waiting for.

This is an interfaith forum. If you want to change it into a faith forum then I'll leave. But I'll wait first that you drop the "inter" from the word "interfaith".

Interfaith forums > Religion, Faith, and Theology > Monotheism > Islam

Are you blind?.This is a interfaith forum as well as islam forum.

I said, still in response to Vajradhara, that IF the Quran would have been written by (or under the direction of) Muhammad (or anybody else) then things like the "beating" of the wife could be easily ignored by 21st century Muslims.
But as the Quran is considered the very Word of God then what is written is written and embarrassing things cannot be easily explained away

Irrelevant.In short this is what you have done
Breaking of Rule of organised discussion.
Breaking of code of conduct
Aggressive criticization.
Making claims without evidence.
Forcing your opinions on everyone.

thipps....i also think that in answering potentially offensive comments it shows more decorum to simply request politely that the person concerned refrain from being offensive. if you start answering in a similar tone it all just disintegrates into a slanging match, which is really a bit pointless

He was answering it in a polite manner,although irrelevant to thread

your comment about mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate....from the point of view of a questioner from outside the faith, this is something rather questionable and needs some clarification. i often hear muslim lecturers stressing the fact that mohammad (pbuh) was illiterate and sometimes even making wild claims that he had no access to jewish or christian scriptures (presumably because he could not read)....however this is somewhat misleading and anyone who investigates further will find these comments to be misleading and will wonder about the motives of those who make such rash claims..

See where this irrelevant conversation is going?.It's so easy to start new thread in comparative section.Isn't it?

mohammad (pbuh) was illiterate.....but that does not mean he was "thick". in the culture of the time most people were illiterate, but they were an intelligent people well versed in poetry and able to memorise and recite vast amounts of information. as many illiterate cultures, people were very "focused" mentally. prophet mohammad (pbuh) also definitely did have access to both jews and christians. i am not trying to suggest that mohammad (pbuh) made up the quran himself, but it seems to me that it would be better to look for the validity of the quran in its meaning rather than stressing its miraculousness because mohammad (pbuh) was illiterate because this is a somewhat debateable point and therefore not convincing to an "outsider".

Irrelevant


I have yet to see any serious attempt to answer my question,that is i was asking which transaltion is correct and why?.What about edip yuksel explanation?.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by dayaa

hello/salam all
thipps....i also think that in answering potentially offensive comments it shows more decorum to simply request politely that the person concerned refrain from being offensive. if you start answering in a similar tone it all just disintegrates into a slanging match, which is really a bit pointless.

wa'alaikum salaam,
mansio was sent a PM before i wrote that reply and it was obvious that telling him in private was not helping, so he deserves the answer exactly as it was written in public. This is not the Comparative Religion forum and beaking the Code of Conduct is taken seriously here.

[dayaa]

hello/salam

sorry plucky ali.....i forgot all about your original question and got carried away following the thread. yes actually most of it was a bit irrelevant. i'll leave you to get on with the subject now

sorry thipps also....didn't know about the pm (obviously).

mansio...there you are, there was a suggestion for you. take any material that interests you from this thread and start it up again on comparative. that way you can put any points, ask any questions, make any comments for those who are interested without causing offence on the islam board.

[PluckyAli]

Salaam,

I'll leave you to get on with the subject now"

no no,You can talk everything relating to women here.But i have a prob when someone starts asking about the authority of quran and some people start replying them,and some other people start telling them how to answer,it's more like a comical scence for me.I don't have anytime to spend on this thread,i have a flight today.I will rarely come here now.I started this thread because someone asked me about the rights of women in islam and quoted this verse.And I believe the rights of women are very clear in 4:19.

Staffy,thipps,and dayaa thank you for your relevant answers.You people or non-muslims who have any question regarding women in islam can continue on this thread with respect and peace.

[mansio]

I was mislead by the words "comparative religion" and "interfaith dialogue forum". Now if you could point out where I should post on this forum, I would stop disturbing you.

[I, Brian]

See the Private Message I sent.