Women?

PluckyAli · 06-28-2005, 02:25 AM

Salaam,
There is a problem with 4:34.

Let's see Al-Nisa 4:34

Quote:

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husbands absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husbands property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great. "

Reference:http://www.quran.net/

Quote:

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Al-Qur'an, 004.034 (An-Nisa [Women])
From www.divineislam.org
which is correct translation Allah has made one of them to excell the other or Allah has give the one more strength than the other?.

Why is beat lightly in brackets?.I only like literal translations.Is this verse correctly translated like above?.Or is it like transalted by edip yuksel below?

Quote:

Men traditionally take care of women, since God has endowed each of them with certain qualities and men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God) and during the absence (of their husband) they honor them according to God's commandment. As for those women whom you are experiencing a fear of disloyalty from, you shall first advice them, then (if they continue) you may desert them in bed, then you may strike them out. If they obey you then don't transgress against them. God is Most High, Supreme." (4:34).

Reference:http://www.quran-islam.org/228.html

I would agree with Edip yuksel,but why is this verse usually translated wrong?.Since i am not an arabic,i think any arabic speaker can best translate this verse.Strike them out means strike them out from the houses,and doesnot mean beat them.Edip yuksel is turkish.

mansio · 06-28-2005, 12:25 PM

The word "beat" is translated differently when people cannot accept (for evident reasons) what the Quran states.

PluckyAli · 06-28-2005, 05:34 PM

Mansio,You should learn to behave, or else WE WOULD SHOW YOU HOW TO BEHAVE.

thipps · 06-28-2005, 06:55 PM

salaam PluckyAli,
The first translation seems better to me. The second doesnt.
For a start, please read from the middle of:
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=10981
Thats tafsir ibn katheer. The 'light' part was qualified by the Prophet(pbuh). The relevant hadith is there as well. You will have to read a couple of pages... will take only a few minutes. by the way, what is written in the verse is to be applied in stages. If the first method fails, then you try the second. If that doesnt work, then the third where the third is explained with whatever restraints apply. I'm specifically saying this so that anyone who is reading this doesnt get the idea that if a guy asks his wife to do something and she refuses, then the next thing that happens is Whack! This is definitely not the case.
whenever you hear about wife-beating, one thinks of a woman whose face is swollen and possibly with multiple brusies and cuts. This is definitely not the case here as the Prophet(pbuh) forbade striking the face. And definitely dont forget the reminder given at the end to the men by Allaah. Ibn kathir says that:
(Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.) reminds men that if they transgress against their wives without justification, then Allah, the Ever Most High, Most Great, is their Protector, and He will exert revenge on those who transgress against their wives and deal with them unjustly.
I'll see what else I can find for you.
Hope this helped.
And Allaah knows best.

PluckyAli · 06-29-2005, 01:43 AM

Salaam,
Thank you for your reply thipps.

This verse is very clear about how we should treat women.
Al-Nisa 4:19

Quote:

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allâh brings through it a great deal of good.

Actually i mentioned 3 differ translations of the same verse.The 1st and 2nd can be combined to make one verse,they are saying the same thing with differ words.
According to 1st translation Allah has made one of them to excel the other.Excel in what?.To know this we should read the whole context again.Men are the protectors and mainteners only because they excel the women in strength.This verse doesnot say men have higher staus then women.They are both equal.

Thipps take a look at Edip yuksel explanation.What are your comments or any other person who is arabic literate can comment on Edip Yuksel explanation.
http://www.quran-islam.org/228.html

Vajradhara · 06-30-2005, 12:21 AM

Salaam,

Quote:

Originally Posted by PluckyAli

Mansio,You should learn to behave, or else WE WOULD SHOW YOU HOW TO BEHAVE.

what does this mean, Plucky?

are you offering a bit of instruction in proper Islamic etiquette or are you trying to intimidate the poster?

as you can imagine, one of those options is right out.

PluckyAli · 06-30-2005, 11:46 AM

First of all the word beat is not translated differently.Most scholars translate it as beat(lightly).

Are we idiots to discuss quran openly here if we can't accept what the quran says for evident reasons?.If i can't accept something in quran,I will leave the whole quran & never even think of changing translation.

"what does this mean, Plucky?"
This simple mean don't come here and post about things you don't know.

Does he knows better what the quran states?.Or he is arabic scholar or what?

mansio · 06-30-2005, 01:29 PM

Thanks Vajradhara for your intervention.
PluckyAli's reaction was proportionate to the embarrassment this verse is to Muslims.
In the Arabic text is written "beat" not "beat lightly", whether "lightly" is in brackets or not.
To add to the Quran is to show disrespect to God's word.

Staffy · 06-30-2005, 03:27 PM

Wasalam,
Let me explain my understanding of the verse for their has been much controversy about this particular verse......The word "beat" is somtimes to harsh for the real meaning of the verse the "beating" as such is more symbolic than anything so the woman truely knows she's arived at the last stage and her husband has to do such a thing......Many scholars have gone over this subject some saying the beating should be a light tap with a object such as a toothbrush (completly symbolic) and another even saying a folded handercheif would be suficeint.........From my sources Muhamad (pbuh) was very spicific in explaining the above to his disiples (That the beating should be purely symbolic).......
And in regard to the verse that males have a certain degree of superiority it is true......But women have many things males do not have......
Superioriority should be looked at this way......
Strength......Leadership(the husband leads his family to heaven)......Protection(the husband is much more suited to that task)
But as they say marrige is half your deen...And you should judge a man by how he treats his wife and his truthfulness and wisdom.......
So you see the Man is the king of the house hold but as with any Islamic king his alegeiance lies with Allah and his people(family)........
In Islam you have absolute equality but equality is not samness..........For it is quite obvious Man and Woman were created equal in Allahs eyes but are not the same.......
I hope i've shed a little light.........I am new to this forum and this is my first post........Wasalam salam to all my brothers and sisters in Islam.......And may we all learn from life...................Staffy

PluckyAli · 07-01-2005, 01:55 AM

Salaam Staffy,And welcome to CR forums.Please consider filling your profile.

farhan · 07-01-2005, 07:57 AM

HI ,

I have read that verbs in arabic incorporate the meaning of slight or heavy ( as in the case of beating ) . Is this true

thipps · 07-01-2005, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mansio

In the Arabic text is written "beat" not "beat lightly", whether "lightly" is in brackets or not.
To add to the Quran is to show disrespect to God's word.

as i explained, the 'lightly' part in brackets is qualified by the Prophet(pbuh) himself. read my posts. this is not adding dearie.. this is for ur understanding. You seem to be new to how scripture is read... i suggest less emphasis on the inflammatory comments and more on trying to learn.
thankyou.

Vajradhara · 07-01-2005, 08:35 PM

Salaam Mansio,

thank you for the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mansio

Thanks Vajradhara for your intervention.

twas not an "intervention" merely a question for clarification and so forth.

as the Code of Conduct makes plain, certain behaviors are not really encouraged here. thus, a clarification was requested of the poster.

Quote:

PluckyAli's reaction was proportionate to the embarrassment this verse is to Muslims.

well... whilst there is some validity in your point here, this seems to be a cultural idom, moreso than a teaching of Islam.

there are teachings which are found Islam that were cultural practices at the time. the Prophet(pbuh) understood this and, rather than instituting whole sale change, he advocated a gradual change from these practices.

at least, this is what i understand of these things.

it can be quite difficult to come to a proper understanding of religious teachings without a good understanding of the cultural millieu in which they were given, in my view.

we see this quite often with Buddhism, for instance. it is nigh impossible for us to understand the cultural situation of India, some 2,500 years ago. nevertheless, when we put our efforts into this and gleen some understanding, the teachings open up in a new way, at least this as been my experience.

Quote:

In the Arabic text is written "beat" not "beat lightly", whether "lightly" is in brackets or not.
To add to the Quran is to show disrespect to God's word.

well... i tend to agree that the inclusion of () appears to be an addition or clarification of a teaching. i tend to find these sorts of clarifications useful when studying a religion of which i'm unacquianted, the various translations of the same term allow a non-native speaker of the language to appreciate the nuances that are usually overlooked.

metta,

~v

Vajradhara · 07-01-2005, 08:39 PM

Salaam Plucky Ali,

thank you for the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PluckyAli

"what does this mean, Plucky?"
This simple mean don't come here and post about things you don't know.

this is not a policy of this forum.

this forum is, as you may have guessed, actually set up to facilitate conversation between beings that may not know. without asking questions and presenting views, one cannot learn the correct from the incorrect.

as such, if you bear in mind that many beings do not have a solid understanding of Islam, it may make your stay here more enjoyable.

Quote:

Does he knows better what the quran states?.Or he is arabic scholar or what?

why don't you ask if he is an Arabic scholar?

mansio · 07-01-2005, 10:23 PM

Hello Vajradhara

There are several topics in the Quran that relate to a 7th century cultural milieu and could be easily ignored by modern Muslims (the veil for example).

The problem is the Quran is not considered a 7th century theological treatise written by Muhammad, but the eternal Word of God revealed in clear Arabic.