Women's Work

[juantoo3]

It is indeed a pleasant surprise we have found some common ground between us!

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Women can often be just as cruel and manipulative with their psychological warfare as any man and the incidence of physical violence against men though lower, at 1 in 10, is still statistically significant. That said two wrongs do not make a right and a man convicted of violence against a woman is usually capable of same against his children. I am all for zero tolerance of any violence and I am glad that the courts take this issue a lot more seriously now.

You raise some valid points, primarily about zero tolerance and to be taken seriously. That said, I was in my own subtle way suggesting that *in some cases* perhaps that relative male who murders the female does so in retaliation after suffering through years of mental anguish at the hands of said female. You know, the quiet neighbor who suddenly snaps for no apparent reason...

But you raise another point I overlooked. A woman capable of mentally abusing her husband is just as capable of mentally abusing her children. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Here you do not have my support, how can you compare catching a cold or having an accident with domestic murder?

It was a misplaced stab at humor.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Statistically it is an undeniable fact that you are more likely to be murdered by a spouse than anyone else but that cuts both ways. Also the rate of suicide amongst men is significantly higher in relationships than in women.

The point was that any given typical woman is far more likely to die of causes other than murder. In fact, the typical woman is more likely to outlive the typical man. More men statistically are murdered than women.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I think we are still in the early days of reaching a fair and equal gender balance for living in the modern world and we are all going to have to show a little patience. Many women want and are happiest with a man who is strong and shows leadership in a relationship. Some women seek an equal partnership and others want to wear the boots. What works for one couple will never be perfect for every couple. In the workplace things are different and some discrimination does exist in both salary and career climbing differentials. I think in the case of salary there should be legislative moves to end this discrimination. But I do not see how to legislate the glass ceiling without making that legislation open to abuse by individuals that are unsuited to the posts and are using it to make a quick buck. Whatever happens men and women are going to continue to rib and snipe at each other as they have always done. Mostly it is harmless fun and recognition of our differences. And if we ever lose that then we are really in crisis.

I think Chris actually hit on the soft white underbelly of all of this. There *are* differences that simply are not going to go away because of any legislation or attempts at social reform. Life's not fair. That is not an excuse, but it is the reality. I think a key ingredient is to consider this reality when making certain life decisions.

I touched on it in the other thread, but there are so many well meaning but misguided reformers that do take the tact that a better life should be given without merit or *paying one's dues,* specifically to those *they* deem worthy at the expense of others. Social promotion it is called, whether capable or not. There are a lot of comments I have heard off the record about socially promoted individuals.

For example; if you were facing an operation for a life threatening condition, would you rather be operated on by the doctor who earned his/her skills, or one to whom that position was *given* without first earning the proper skills? Think I'm making this up? I used that example because it is the basis of the most shocking discussion I heard based on this issue.

I am all for anybody getting anywhere they want to go, as long as they do it the old fashioned way, as long as they earn it. As long as they pay their dues. Handing someone position and authority without the skills and ability (and drive and desire) is giving them a gun with which to shoot themselves in the foot.

There are countless examples of "minority" success stories who were able to achieve in the midst of adversity and contrary tradition. History is full of examples of these mavericks and renegades. And all of them did it by *not* assuming the mantle of victim, in stark contrast to what is commonly taught today.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I want to bite my tongue, Francis, but I really must protest this. It is grossly inaccurate. The link I pointed to earlier brings out some of the things I would say here, but I will try to summarize briefly. In primary school *I* had male teachers, and I am well into middle age now. I work with nurses every day I go in to work, and a surprising number of them are males. So I really do think this is a deliberately biased and bigoted view of things.

Are there as many men in traditionally female roles as you personally might prefer? Perhaps not, but let us consider for a moment the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma men are faced with. A man that expresses interest in child care as an occupation is automatically assumed, by those same liberated females, to be a child molesting pervert on the prowl. Sure, men face gender stereo-type ridicule from other men too, but generally not of the kind that can ruin lives, families and reputations. Like some sniping women are all too eager to do.

Doesn't this go back to not letting men be men? In the Rudyard Kipling poem I posted, self-control is described as part of being a man. With this in mind, is a child-molesting pervert really being a man? Is assuming that males who want to go into child care/teaching are really perverts actually denying these guys the opportunity to be real men?

I wonder if anybody has done the research on how many men are subjected to mental cruelty and mental abuse by women? And what those stats are?

It would take a large amount of discernment to determine how much of this mental cruelty/abuse was due to a woman testing what kind of man the guy is, versus actual cruelty/abuse via denying the guy a chance to actually be a man.

To contrast, how much more likely is a man to be subjected to a woman's hormonally induced irrational behavior? I would say about 2 in 30, on average, wouldn't you?

100%. Face it. There is no escaping those nasty ol' hormones.
You can either let them bring out the best qualities of manhood in you, or you can let them bring out the worst animalistic qualities in you. {I think it's a shame that so many women want to skew it to bring out the worst qualities just to prove a point.}

[juantoo3]

Oh, that others were so enlightened as you!

Meant as a sincere and big compliment!

[path_of_one]

1. In the past, it seems both men and women were primarily property of their parents and very limited in their choices. They were to enter a profession their parents chose (if the man were rich) and marry the people that were acceptable to their parents (both genders), whether they wanted to or not. If you were poor, you had more freedom but then you also had grinding poverty and no birth control. So... life just sucked for a lot of people. Men and women alike.

2. The gender disparity in the US cuts both ways... Yes, there is still inequality in earnings and the glass ceiling in some professions. On the flip side, women can take time off and still have respect for doing the mommy-track for a while. They aren't seen as lazy or anything. Men taking the daddy-track are often seen as slackers by future employers. Women have more options- they can choose almost any profession at this point, or no profession at all (i.e., be a mom or wife) and in either case, they will be respected by most people. Men- just try being a husband as your only job. It's just socially frowned on.

There are HUGE disparities in who gets custody of children. Most men fight tooth and nail for even partial custody. Moms are automatically assumed to be the better parent, no matter what the kid's age or gender! Lip service to equality, indeed...

3. Domestic abuse from both sexes is a problem. I personally haven't seen abusive relationships that weren't due to both people's interactions. That is, women who are psychologically healthy LEAVE at the first sign of abuse. The fact that many women stick around and play martyr shows a widespread issue with women's self-esteem and self-perception. Truthfully, in most cases I've seen where the guy is abusive it's due to either big-time trauma (childhood abuse, war PTSD, etc.) or because the woman is also abusive in subtle ways. It's not to excuse the guys, but to say that men need help if they are abusive. And women need to get healthy so they will prefer aloneness to abuse.

I'm more concerned that 1 in 3 women in the US is sexually assualted by a man. That's unacceptable and shows that there is a real issue in our culture with male sexuality.

4. As for men teasing strong women, I got that when I worked with cowboys for a year on my dissertation. I didn't really care. Blue collar men tease each other all the time, too. Mercilessly. It's just a cultural thing, and that they tease me is the same test of my humor. They are seeing if I respond culturally appropriately to see if I'm one of the group or will remain an outsider.

To be fair to men, women don't show, as a whole group, that we all want the same things. Most pretty young women I've known don't want to break a nail, they are concerned about brands of purses, and drink syrupy fruity drinks rather than Guinness. They want to be feminine and taken care of. So, why blame the guys when they are suprised by me wanting to jump into the fray and help, not caring a hoot about the year's fashions, and loving Guinness? They're just responding to social conditioning that most women play an active role in creating.

On the flip side, I'm very appreciative when someone opens a door for me, or helps me with a large stack of packages. I don't care if you're a man, woman, or child- that's nice. I can't tell you how many nervous guys stood at the door with an apologetic look on their face, opening the door and expressing their worry that I will take offense. Men are yelled at for giving common courtesies to others, and that is just dumb. I mean, seriously- what guy actually thinks if he weren't there the women could never figure out how to open the door? It's not that we can't, it's just that they're being nice. I open the door for mom's pushing a stroller, but it isn't like the mom couldn't figure out door-opening in my absence.

5. There does seem to be a problem with the way we perceive women in sports. The big concern in the US is that two of sports that causes the most serious injuries are soccer and cheerleading, yet both are given far less protection than football because they aren't seen as dangerous.

6. Can't say I've had the same experiences in writing. I've read tons of good books by women, and I don't even read chick lit. That said, I will put forth that many folks seem to create old women-authored lit as chick films (i.e., Jane Austen's stuff) when the books were biting social commentary. Just because a book has a lot of stuff on marriage in it, doesn't mean it's a girly book that is all "squee" about relationships.

Most of the men I know are weak fools. They cannot outrun me, or out-think me. Yet because they have that little swinging set on the outside, they automatically feel they are better than me, with my bleeding and dirty gash.

Most men I know are about the same as most women I know... sleep-walking through life. They are no better or no worse than women. They're overworked, underpaid, not sure of their passions in life... in short, normal. I don't meet very many men who really feel they are better than women. In fact, I meet about as many women who feel they are better than men. It's a small but vocal minority in both genders. Most of the rest are just working out a relationship that works for them.

women are seen as weaker than men, both physically and intellectually.

I am weaker than a lot of men physically. I'm a strong woman, but my husband is way stronger than me in terms of brute strength. I don't really mind it. I have other advantages, like the capacity to bear children and the likelihood of a longer lifespan. Just because there are real biological differences between men and women as a whole doesn't mean one is better or worse.

As for intellectually, I've never been seen as weaker than men. I was always in the top of my classes and men never were bothered by it. My male colleagues were very supportive. So, I just don't know. Maybe the West US coast is just super gender equal in this regard.

Of course, things are changing, but they are not changing as quickly as they should. It's the same for race, too. We pretend we're all liberals, but we're not really.

I prefer to see it as that it is changing, and incredibly rapidly (given we couldn't vote 100 years ago) but it takes time for culture to change. Laws change first, but social norms take a while to kick in with the alterations. It is what it is, and I don't think it's any better for men at this point.

Society acknowledges, for the most part, that men should do half the dishes, laundry, and vacuuming...

But most people don't tell women they should do half the lawn mowing, the home repair projects, or the carrying of heavy stuff into the house.

It's not a statement against women. It's mostly women that I see reinforcing this. Many women want more options, not equality. Two different things...

[China Cat Sunflower]

Fabulous post Kim!

I had thought when I got married that I would be free to discard all the gender role stuff, but what happened was that I slowly fell into doing things the old fashioned way because pushing back against it just caused extra stress and complicated things. It seemed that life was hitting us pretty fast at the beginning when we started having children and were trying to scrape together a down payment for a home of our own. It didn't seem like there was time to try to make up a whole new egalitarian task chart, so we just sorta slipped into the status quo.

Right now I'm more concerned with control issues that the female members of my clan have with each other. My wife feels that she is forced into the bad cop parent role while I get to be the nice daddy. No matter their age, all women are rivals at some level. Mom's and daughters have a special kind of rivalry! Is it my fault all women secretly hate each other?

Chris

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I had thought when I got married that I would be free to discard all the gender role stuff, but what happened was that I slowly fell into doing things the old fashioned way because pushing back against it just caused extra stress and complicated things.

I figure, whatever works in a given relationship. My husband and I aren't traditional by any stretch, but I happen to *want* to stay with the kids if we have them. I'm glad he doesn't mind being the primary earner if that comes to pass. I genuinely like to cook, and if I have time, a lot of the cleaning isn't so bad either. I like gardening, but I dislike lawn mowing and it'd be a waste of my time to putter with home improvement projects when I'm married to a general contractor. Kind of like it'd be a waste of his time to learn editing skills when he can just hand me something and I get it done pronto. It doesn't mean other things I don't do along with the guys, but I figure I have limited time and I'm not going to bother learning how to do every single task just as well as my husband, and neither is he. We want some fun time, you know? Every couple has to work out what their expectations are and incorporate what they are good at and what they aren't. For some people, it looks traditional but big deal.

I think the main thing is equal respect. I want my decision-making process and my opinions and my intellect to be equally respected as men's, whether at work, at home, or whatever. I want my husband to respect me, even if we have different skills and gifts and ways of doing stuff. Likewise, my husband wants that from me.

And all you have to do is watch the sitcoms with the endless array of fathers being portrayed as loveable buffoons to realize that there is definitely a two way prejudice going on... men may be seen as more "rational" and capable in certain workplaces, but women are definitely seen as more nurturing and capable in the family. I think both prejudices are a load of BS, and I feel as badly for the guys as the women... more so because I am protected by the law and can sue my employer for gender discrimination but no one is culpable for men being considered unfit parents and lousy at home management.

Mom's and daughters have a special kind of rivalry! Is it my fault all women secretly hate each other?

I guess I'm lucky. Grew up in a family of women- mom and sister, mostly aunts on my mother's side, and they are my very best friends. Never felt rivalry with mom or my sister. I am super excited for everything good that comes their way, and they are likewise.

But I do recognize that it is often women that perpetuate the worst of the pressure on women. I don't know too many men who even know this year's fashion trends, fewer that care. It is women that make other women feel like they need to dress a certain way. I don't know too many men who find their wife unattractive when she doesn't put on make up or do her hair. It's the classic line that men don't even notice a new hair style and whatnot. Yet women claim (often) they feel "pressured" to maintain themselves in this way. Yeah, they do--- from other women.

Likewise, most men are pretty content with a house that is decently in order, not too slobbish, and food that arrives at regular intervals. I've yet to meet many men who care if it's some fancy Martha Stewart recipe or Hamburger Helper. They're just grateful if they don't have to cook it. LOL It's women we try to impress by having a lovely dining set, a spotless house, a gourmet meal when we have friends over.

It's us staring at photos of rail-thin models with falsely airbrushed perfect skin and curves that make us hate our bodies. Men seem to love all different body shapes and sizes, and while a few may complain, most seem just attracted to the female form in general.

I feel for women, I really do. I am a woman. But when it comes to breaking free from our socially imposed bonds, I fully recognize we need to start looking sideways at one another rather than always across the "line" at the guys. Want to quit feeling pressure to buy this pair of heels or start that diet or fix your make up? Quit associating with women who make snide remarks if you don't.

[juantoo3]

Awesome posts Path!

[Tao_Equus]

Agreed, you leave me nothing to say Path


But to Chris, I extend my heartfelt sympathies...and hope they can work it out.

[greymare]

beautifully said, pathbaby. as usual

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Doesn't this go back to not letting men be men? In the Rudyard Kipling poem I posted, self-control is described as part of being a man. With this in mind, is a child-molesting pervert really being a man? Is assuming that males who want to go into child care/teaching are really perverts actually denying these guys the opportunity to be real men?

It is comforting to realize at least one woman understands the social conflict inherent in emasculation.

Of course, it still leaves other quandaries of the masculine gender, like the propensity to war.

Yet, that isn't quite right either. Women war too...but on an entirely different level. Women tend to be far more cunning and brutal when they war. Kipling noted that in his poem as well.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Path_of_One

I feel for women, I really do. I am a woman. But when it comes to breaking free from our socially imposed bonds, I fully recognize we need to start looking sideways at one another rather than always across the "line" at the guys. Want to quit feeling pressure to buy this pair of heels or start that diet or fix your make up? Quit associating with women who make snide remarks if you don't.

Actually, I think it might be a self-esteem issue with these women. (I think they might feel insecure about not looking good without makeup.) They don't seem to understand that it ain't what's on the outside that makes beauty, when in reality, it's what's on the inside that is the source of true beauty.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Right now I'm more concerned with control issues that the female members of my clan have with each other. My wife feels that she is forced into the bad cop parent role while I get to be the nice daddy. No matter their age, all women are rivals at some level. Mom's and daughters have a special kind of rivalry! Is it my fault all women secretly hate each other?

Chris

Women who live together tend to have their menstrual cycles synchronized, so they all get PMS at the same time. {Which, I have been told, is the best argument against polygamy yet.}

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

It is comforting to realize at least one woman understands the social conflict inherent in emasculation.

Of course, it still leaves other quandaries of the masculine gender, like the propensity to war.

Yet, that isn't quite right either. Women war too...but on an entirely different level. Women tend to be far more cunning and brutal when they war. Kipling noted that in his poem as well.

Different nasty ol' hormones...

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Actually, I think it might be a self-esteem issue with these women. (I think they might feel insecure about not looking good without makeup.) They don't seem to understand that it ain't what's on the outside that makes beauty, when in reality, it's what's on the inside that is the source of true beauty.

I absolutely agree. This is then transferred to others. It's sort of classic to have people who haven't done any self-reflection and psychological work on themselves almost mindlessly externalize their own insecurities, and then seek to make others feel just as badly. I find it sad. I do my best to tell women I meet who are insecure like that what all their good points are, but it won't sink in until a woman is ready to love herself and work on what's on the inside.

The problem is that working on one's inside is a much tougher road- more time consuming and you can't just pay to get that done by someone else. So I think sometimes out of sheer laziness, people work on what's on the outside.

The male equivalent I generally notice is the drive to make more money, have more power, and get more stuff. They mistake power and wealth on the inside with power and wealth on the outside.

Everyone ends up trying to keep up with the Jones' and hating themselves.

It's so much more difficult, but so much cheaper and better in the long run, to ignore the Jones' and just work on what's inside. That's what people fall in love with for a lifetime anyway, and isn't that really what nearly everyone wants- to be loved for their entire life?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Women who live together tend to have their menstrual cycles synchronized, so they all get PMS at the same time. {Which, I have been told, is the best argument against polygamy yet.}

The saying goes, a reporter asked the famous Seminole Chief Billy Bowlegs how he managed to keep two wives.

His reply? Two teepees.