worship or serve the Christ?

LeoSalinas22 · 08-15-2007, 05:14 PM

hello everyone,
i know this may have been discussed before in another thread but i can't find it so i started this one. i have been reading alot lately and questioning the claim from religious people that Christ is God Himself. i came across these verses in the book of Daniel. what i find most noteworthy is that the Tanach and KJV say that man will serve the Christ and not worship Him. now, the NIV version says that man will worship Him (is NIV version bias?). i myself am very "iffy" on worshipping a man. especially since God Himself in the Tanach or Old Testament says that man should only worship God and only Him (Deuteronomy 4:35-39, 6:4, & 32:39). Christ Himself never claims that He is God Himself. though, people then and people now see it that way to this day! my question being to everyone is this: should we worship or serve God's Christ?

the Tanach

Daniel 7:13. I saw in the visions of the night, and behold with the clouds of the heaven, one like a man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was brought before Him.
14. And He gave him dominion and glory and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and tongues shall serve him; his dominion is an eternal dominion, which will not be removed, and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.

KJV

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

NIV

Daniel 7:13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

thanks for reading and peace be upon you all.

17th Angel · 08-15-2007, 05:24 PM

Well from the horses mouth... Matt 4:10.... What does this say to you hombre?

Also you missed a very large option from the topic.... Worship, serve or -follow- the christ... To follow the footsteps as best you can of a "perfect example" I wouldn't see the harm in that.

bananabrain · 08-15-2007, 05:56 PM

arrg. this is a really difficult one. the word in aramaic is "yilpechun" which can definitely mean "worship", yet it is clear that it is the "bar nasha" that is meant, although we're all really clear that you don't worship the messiah. i guess for once my problem would be the same as yours, leo, except that we wouldn't agree on who the messiah was, of course. i shall investigate.

b'shalom

bananabrain

BlaznFattyz · 08-15-2007, 05:57 PM

both.

Thomas · 08-15-2007, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

Christ Himself never claims that He is God Himself.

Except at His trial, which got Him executed.
And when He explained to His disciples what the parables meant.

Some might say that Christ demonstrated He was God, by His words and His deeds. And his disciples certainly seemed to come to that conclusion.

Certainly, in all the miracles He performed, He never claimed that the Father did them, but rather did them in His own name ... which says volumes ... the prophets always stated that it was God who speaks through them, they never said or did anything on their own authority.

But as to the question ... worship or service, freely given, is an act of love ... and I don't think you can do one without the other?

Then again, if you asked Christ, I think He'd opt for service...

Then again ... if Christ is not God, then we should not worship Him, neither should we serve Him, but God alone.

Thomas

Faithfulservant · 08-15-2007, 06:56 PM

First off Jesus was not JUST A MAN. He was God in the flesh.. Fully Man AND God...

Jesus was worshiped as a baby throughout His life on this earth.

Matthew 2:11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2 And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean."

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."

Luke 24:52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy

John 9:38 Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him

He never told anyone not to worship Him.. If He was truly just a rabbi He would have admonished anyone for breaking the first commandment.

How can you deny it after His own words??

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Is Jesus a Liar? Was Jesus a crazy man? Or was He telling the truth?

BlaznFattyz · 08-15-2007, 07:11 PM

9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me....
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

AndrewX · 08-16-2007, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Then again, if you asked Christ, I think He'd opt for service...

I think so too. And that includes emulation, as per `WWJD,' or following.

For those who emphasize the following, what exactly does that mean? I don't think it would be possible to truly follow Christ's example, and not serve God as well as one's fellow man ... and service to God is the greatest form of Worship I can imagine.

In other words, it's impossible to do one, without the other ... and it brings to mind Matthew 15:8-9, and the whole subject of hypocrisy. This thread begs the question, what is `worship' (or service, for that matter) and there are many opinions, or approaches to that.

17th Angel · 08-16-2007, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Well from the horses mouth... Matt 4:10.... What does this say to you hombre?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

First off Jesus was not JUST A MAN. He was God in the flesh.. Fully Man AND God...

Soooo... Looking at 4:10, and what you say, Jesus was a schitzoprhenic?

Faithfulservant · 08-16-2007, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Soooo... Looking at 4:10, and what you say, Jesus was a schitzoprhenic?

No? I think you need to understand what you are reading. Satan is tempting Jesus to worship and serve him and Jesus quoted OT scripture which He and the apostles did throughout the NT... The interesting thing is earlier on in this temptation of Jesus Christ... He says "thou shalt not tempt the Lord they God." Matthew 4:7

BTW this is a wonderful lesson in resisting the devil using scripture so that he will flee from you.

LeoSalinas22 · 08-17-2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananabrain

arrg. this is a really difficult one. the word in aramaic is "yilpechun" which can definitely mean "worship", yet it is clear that it is the "bar nasha" that is meant, although we're all really clear that you don't worship the messiah. i guess for once my problem would be the same as yours, leo, except that we wouldn't agree on who the messiah was, of course. i shall investigate.

b'shalom

bananabrain

hello bb,
what does "bar nasha" mean?

17th Angel · 08-17-2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

No? I think you need to understand what you are reading. Satan is tempting Jesus to worship and serve him and Jesus quoted OT scripture which He and the apostles did throughout the NT... The interesting thing is earlier on in this temptation of Jesus Christ... He says "thou shalt not tempt the Lord they God." Matthew 4:7

BTW this is a wonderful lesson in resisting the devil using scripture so that he will flee from you.

So your version of matthew 4:10 shows him saying to worship god? Why didn't he say only worship me! or in the one your showing why doesn't he say "don't tempt... ME"

Who is speaking in Matthew 3:17? John 8:42 what the hell is that all about then? john 20:17? What aboot John 14:28? 1 Cor 11:3? 1 Cor 15:28? lol.... Col 1:15? That is only a small handful of them... How can he be two people? He throws his voice? He created himself? He goes from one place to a place where he already is? He lies to people? lol... If that is true.... You sure he wasn't on medication?

LeoSalinas22 · 08-17-2007, 05:21 PM

hi blazn and faith,

one thing i don't understand. why is it that you guys give me scripture about what man does and not about what the Christ Himself says. you give me verses of what the disciples or followers do to Christ. namely worship Him. just because someone does something doesn't mean that it is ok for us to do it as well. the only thing i keep reading in the Gospels as Christ saying is "follow me." never does He say worship me. as you can see only God Himself says that, but never His Christ. i take it you guys don't care about what God Himself says here in Deuteronomy 4:35-39, 6:4, & 32:39?

for those who are confused between the two words:

serve /sɜrv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[surv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, served, serv·ing, noun
–verb (used without object) 1. to act as a servant.
2. to wait on table, as a waiter.
3. to offer or have a meal or refreshments available, as for patrons or guests: Come early, we're serving at six.
4. to offer or distribute a portion or portions of food or a beverage, as a host or hostess: It was her turn to serve at the faculty tea.
5. to render assistance; be of use; help.
6. to go through a term of service; do duty as a soldier, sailor, senator, juror, etc.
7. to have definite use: This cup will serve as a sugar bowl.
8. to answer the purpose: That will serve to explain my actions.
9. (in tennis, badminton, handball, etc.) to put the ball or shuttlecock in play with a stroke, swing, or hit.
10. to be favorable, suitable, or convenient, as weather or time.
11. Ecclesiastical. to act as a server.
–verb (used with object) 12. to be in the service of; work for.
13. to be useful or of service to; help.
14. to go through (a term of service, imprisonment, etc.).
15. to render active service to (a sovereign, commander, etc.).
16. to render obedience or homage to (God, a sovereign, etc.).
17. to perform the duties of (a position, an office, etc.): to serve his mayoralty.
18. to answer the requirements of; suffice: This will serve our needs for the moment.
19. to contribute to; promote: to serve a cause.
20. to wait upon at table; act as a waiter or waitress to.
21. to carry and distribute (portions of food or drink) to a patron or a specific table, as a waiter or waitress.
22. to act as a host or hostess in offering (a person) a portion of food or drink: May I serve you with some tea and cake?
23. to act as a host or hostess in offering or distributing (a portion or portions of food or drink) to another: They served tea and cake to their guests.
24. to provide with a regular or continuous supply of something.
25. (in tennis, badminton, handball, etc.) to put (the ball or shuttlecock) in play.
26. to treat in a specified manner: That served him ill.
27. Law. a. to make legal delivery of (a process or writ).
b. to present (a person) with a writ.

28. to gratify (desire, wants, needs, etc.).
29. (of a male animal) to mate with; service.
30. to operate or keep in action (a gun, artillery, etc.).
31. Nautical. to wrap (a rope) tightly with small stuff, keeping the turns as close together as possible.
–noun 32. the act, manner, or right of serving, as in tennis.
—Idiom33. serve one right, to treat one as one deserves, esp. to punish justly: It will serve you right if she never speaks to you again.

and then...

wor·ship /ˈwɜrʃɪp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wur-ship] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -shiped, -ship·ing or (especially British) -shipped, -ship·ping.
–noun 1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her).
–verb (used with object) 6. to render religious reverence and homage to.
7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
–verb (used without object) 8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
9. to attend services of divine worship.
10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

Faithfulservant · 08-17-2007, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

So your version of matthew 4:10 shows him saying to worship god? Why didn't he say only worship me! or in the one your showing why doesn't he say "don't tempt... ME"

Who is speaking in Matthew 3:17? John 8:42 what the hell is that all about then? john 20:17? What aboot John 14:28? 1 Cor 11:3? 1 Cor 15:28? lol.... Col 1:15? That is only a small handful of them... How can he be two people? He throws his voice? He created himself? He goes from one place to a place where he already is? He lies to people? lol... If that is true.... You sure he wasn't on medication?

Look at it as a whole. The whole reason the Jews couldnt accept Him was because He was saying He was God.. by saying He was the only begotten Son of God. Gods a smart guy so give Him some credit.. We've been rebelling since creation and He doesnt need us to worship Him..He wants us to come to Him by Faith ... that way we come to Him because we want to not out of duty.

Our puny minds cannot comprehend all that is God and all that He can do... its a mystery.. Its supposed to be a mystery.

Quit trying to read the final chapter.. its cheating.. you have to read all the other pages in between to get the complete story!

Faithfulservant · 08-17-2007, 06:05 PM

Leo..

I see alot of what you think. And how you figure things out...

Do you or do you not believe the bible is the inspired Word of God??

Ive shown you scripture and you continue to not believe what is written..

Just like the post to 17.. the reason the Jews rejected their own Messiah was because He was claiming to be God..

Ex 3:4 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

and I did give you

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."