Would a Gnostic be welcome?

[Gnosteric]

Would an overtly Gnostic individual be welcome in your church?

I ask the question as a Gnostic without a spiritual home. There is no Gnostic church in my state and I desire to be a member of a religious community. I know that a Christian church is, for me, second choice to a Gnostic church, but I still desire a place where I can take part in the Eucharist (even if our interpretations are very different), sing the hymns, hear your readings about Christ (even if I’d rather hear some of the “other Gospels” as well), feel the spirit, and share in fellowship.

Would that be insulting of me to do? Would your local congregation accept me without trying to change me? Would I be better off abandoning hope for my mingling with any Christian church and accept the UU as my home (even though I am looking for something more outwardly “God centered”)?

Thanks for any replies.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Gnosteric

Would an overtly Gnostic individual be welcome in your church?

I ask the question as a Gnostic without a spiritual home. There is no Gnostic church in my state and I desire to be a member of a religious community. I know that a Christian church is, for me, second choice to a Gnostic church, but I still desire a place where I can take part in the Eucharist (even if our interpretations are very different), sing the hymns, hear your readings about Christ (even if I’d rather hear some of the “other Gospels” as well), feel the spirit, and share in fellowship.

Would that be insulting of me to do? Would your local congregation accept me without trying to change me? Would I be better off abandoning hope for my mingling with any Christian church and accept the UU as my home (even though I am looking for something more outwardly “God centered”)?

Thanks for any replies.

Welcome to CR. All "Christians" are welcome. There are certain criteria all must meet while here (regardless of what part of CR they go and post to):
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And there is a certain set of guidances for this particular forum, which Can_be_found_Here

Once again, welcome to CR.

v/r

Quahom

edit: as an aside, we discuss many aspects of Christian thought here, and we have Gnostics who contribute regularly, so I submit you should feel at home.

[Abogado del Diablo]

What is "overtly gnostic"? Depending on what you mean, you can be "overtly gnostic" and it may be that nobody in an orthodox christian church would know the difference (unless you don't say the creed ).

[Abogado del Diablo]

BTW, Gnosteric, here's an older thread that might interest you. If you feel comfortable in posting it, I for one would be interested in reading your story. And if you don't feel comfortable yet, that's fine, but you may enjoy others' stories:

Alternative Christian Awakenings

[Gnosteric]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Welcome to CR. All "Christians" are welcome.

Thank you. It is nice to know that this board is a welcoming one, but I was asking about members' home churches (assuming that many Christians on this forum attend church).

I have approached several Christian churches in my local area and the receptivity regarding someone who is very open about Gnosticism is not good. One UCC minister actually told me to try the UU. A lay leader from our local UMC told me the same thing. Is this representative of most denominations?

So back to my question: would your local Christian church welcome a Gnostic?

[Gnosteric]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

What is "overtly gnostic"? Depending on what you mean, you can be "overtly gnostic" and it may be that nobody in an orthodox christian church would know the difference (unless you don't say the creed ).

That's a big part of my problem. You see, whenever I become interested in engaging with a specific church community, I always ask to speak with someone from the leadership (minister or lay leader) to help identify whether or not it will be a reasonable match. I do this in order to facilitate an open and honest relationship. This inevitably leads to some discussion about my Gnostic worldview ...... and, so far, trouble.

I don't want to be a member of a congregation where I need to "stay in the closet." I have always participated in each church's various discussion/study groups and sharing (from everyone) is important to me.

[path_of_one]

Perhaps this has to do with how big the church is, and the people in the study group. I'm a Christian Druid, and when I worship, I go to a local Episcopal Church. It's a big enough church, and the format is such, that there is no discussion during worship. So nobody knows my relatively unique and non-mainstream views about Christianity. I take (and believe in) Eucharist, etc., but my views about it are my own and I'm content to leave them in my own mind and soul. What the others think about their ritual actions works (hopefully) for them, and what I think works for me.

Now, in small group Bible study, I found a small group of folks who are open-minded and know me well. I don't feel a need to discuss Christian Druidry as such with them, but I do have a need to freely express my interpretations of the Bible, which can be quite different. They're very open and wonderful about this, and I learn a lot from their intepretations as well. It helps that the study just goes line for line in the Bible and we all bring in outside sources for extra information, but we don't follow a study guide that tells us how to think about the passages. This group actually is from an entirely different church than the one at which I worship.

For me, it was finding a church that worshipped in a way and had an official stance on certain issues that worked for me, and finding a separate small group that was sufficiently open to allow for my sometimes unique ideas. It may be different for me, because I have a separate organization with which to discuss and study Druidry, so I don't feel a great need to put so much of myself on the table at church. In truth, studies have shown that there is a great deal of diversity of belief at nearly any church, no matter what their "official" beliefs may be.

I've also been referred to the UU but haven't had a chance to try it out yet. I think it would be interesting- like religious studies classes. But I don't know if they do the sort of worship that is meaningful for me- the eucharist, the common prayers, the old hymns...

[lunamoth]

I was also going to suggest that you would feel welcome in an Episcopal Church, or at least all the ones I've been to. There are some fringe churches in the Episcopalian family that are either quite orthodox conservative or quite evangelical in flavor, but most tend to be open and progressive.

"The Episcopal Church strives to live by the message of Christ, in which there are no outcasts and all are welcome. Walking a middle way between Roman Catholicism and Protestant traditions, we are a sacramental and worship-oriented church that promotes thoughtful debate about what God is calling us to do and be, as followers of Christ. "

from the website: Episcopal Church

That website offers a pretty good intro to the Episcopal Church.

Here's a little statement from the church I currently attend:

"We come together to worship God using the Book of Common Prayer, a gift of our English, Catholic, and reformed tradition. In it we seek expression to fulfill God's desire that we come into His presence and recieve His bountiful Grace in our lives. We invite you to worship with us...(some info about which book is the prayer book and which is the hymnal)...All who recognize the Lord's Body and come to the God's alter in faith, penitence, and charity, tor partake of our Blessed Lord's Body and Blood in Holy Communion this day, will be cordially and lovingly welcome."

Of course, you don't need to take Communion, I went through a time when I did not because it was not meaningful at the time for me. You don't need to say the creed. I went through a time in which I did not say it fully, and even now when I say it it may mean something different to me that the person next to me.

I would say that we are all gnostics in this sense, searching for the knowledge and truth that reveals God's Kingdom, whether we find it within the paradigm of the Trinity and Incarnation, or elsewhere.

My experience and understanding of the Episcopal Church is that no one is ever going to nail you down and ask you what you believe, unless you seek it out yourself to do so. There is a catachism but no one is going to force you to know it or even ask you what you think about it, unless you want to get married or baptized in the Church. Like Path of One says, with consideration and sensitivity to the paths of others, it is likely that you could find a smaller study group who would either share or at least respect your approach.

Even if you view things like the Trinity and the Incarnation all as metaphor, yet are comfortable with hearing about it in prayer, sacraments, hymns, and the sermon, I think you might feel right at home in the Episcopal Church. There's not a whole lot of other doctrine emphasized in our worship. You might want to take a look at the writings of Marcus Borg and Bishop Spong if you'd like to see how far we are able to stretch the paradigm.

A final note. In every Episcopal Church I've been in the outstanding theme is God's love for us and our mission to love one another. This is expressed through the Trinity, and I would also say that we experience in our worship and our lives in Christ. There is a lot of room for personal interpretation of the Bible--lots of room. A woman priest at the last church I attended said once: no one else can tell me how to read scripture or decide what it means for me.

As AdD said, how would anyone know you identify as gnostic. My father is an agnostic, or something like that. He does not believe in God at least, whatever that statement means to him. (I actually would call him a stoic if I had to express what he comes closest to in philosophy) Yet, he's been a very active person in the Episcopal Church in my hometown for years.

Best wishes,
lunamoth

[Thomas]

Would an overtly Gnostic individual be welcome in your church?

Well, from a simple point of view, anyone is welcome. When I spoke to the Dominican Prior of the Church I attend, his response was "if you feel the call to come, come."

Certainly, I am aware of people who receive the Eucharist who are not Catholic. I am aware of someone who palmed the wafer last midnight Mass, and returned to her pew grinning like a Cheshire cat ... which did cause me some concern. If I was invited into your house in the spirit of Christmas, the last thing I would do is take the p**s out of the very welcome you offer.

The simple fact is the priest does not question those who come to receive the Eucharist.

Having said that - there is then a question of what is believed. As stated by others above, 'gnostic' today is so ill-defined as to be almost meaningless. I could rightly argue that every Catholic is a gnostic - to me Christianirty is a religion of gnosis.

The whole gnostic issue is a mishapen debate, not about what is believed, but about the freedom to believe, as if any belief I hold is valid because I hold it, and being a gnostic therefore determines you a heretic - neither of which is the case - but if you mean 'gnostic' as in you believe the doctrine and teachings that were the common stock of a number of 2nd century sects - ie that you are either a hardline dualist or a hardline monist - then there would be some grounds to question why you were there in the first place, as such beliefs might render the notion of 'eucharist' invalid, or meaningless, as what they believed to be true stood in contradiction to what both the Jews and the Christians believed.

As a Catholic, it's not so much a question of your not being welcome, as an honest and open 'why are you here?' ... what common ground is there between us, that is the platform to move forward from, rather than hurling meaningless and ill-founded accusations.

Abogado del Diablo and I are bound (I fear) to disagree, but in my view orthodox Christianity 'opens up' the field of contemplation of man and God, whereas the traditional gnostic beliefs shut it down...

Thomas

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Having said that - there is then a question of what is believed. As stated by others above, 'gnostic' today is so ill-defined as to be almost meaningless.

No, Thomas, the problem is you don't seem interested in trying to understand it, and on that basis you belittle and ridicule it.

Originally Posted by Thomas

The whole gnostic issue is a mishapen debate,

Says you.

Originally Posted by Thomas

not about what is believed, but about the freedom to believe,

Incorrect. As I've told you repeatedly, "beliefs" don't have anything to do with it.

Originally Posted by Thomas

as if any belief I hold is valid because I hold it

By what measure do we judge a "belief" as "valid"?

Originally Posted by Thomas

Abogado del Diablo and I are bound (I fear) to disagree, but in my view orthodox Christianity 'opens up' the field of contemplation of man and God, whereas the traditional gnostic beliefs shut it down...

Which groups in the second century identified themselves as "gnostics"? And those groups that identified themselves as such, what were their "beliefs"? I'm curious as to what you think make up "traditional gnostic beliefs" (which is a double oxymoron, BTW ).

[Dondi]

Certainly, everyone is welcome in the church I attend. But as Thomas pointed out, I would wonder what a Gnostic's motivation would be in visiting our church. Is it to learn of the doctrines by which we hold? Is it to learn biblical truth taught within the pail of orthodoxy? If that is the case, we would be more than willing to preach and teach what we believe. However, if a Gnostic is looking for kindred beliefs, it would depend on what he believes about Scripture, God, Jesus, salvation, the nature of the spirit, soul, and body, etc. If he is looking to disrupt or question our doctrine and try and impose an unorthodox view, then it's best he seeks elsewhere. My church is pretty dogmatic when it comes to extrabiblical sources.

Individually, I would myself invite debate over any questionable viewpoints. I'm a bit more open to that kind of thing that my fellow churchmembers.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Thomas

orthodox Christianity 'opens up' the field of contemplation of man and God*

*your mileage may vary.

Thomas,

Here's an exercise for you to consider. Try to step outside yourself for a moment and consider that everyone who holds to a certain set of "beliefs" about "man and [insert name of deity or impersonal force or essence, etc. here]" does so with the personal experience that those "beliefs," whatever they may be, are real to them. By what means would you propose to unwind that reality and substitute your own?

Do you understand that "orthodox Christianity" doesn't ring true for me? Why is that? Think carefully about your answer.

I don't deal in "beliefs" about external reality. I have conclusions about what is more likely from the evidence I've seen and considered, but I don't think those are "beliefs" in the sense you keep coming back to. The Gnostic journey starts with the nature of identity and how we use language and what words represent. Consequently, the difference between Gnosticism and religious literalism ("orthodoxy") is one of method rather than belief, which is why Gnosticism is pan-cultural. If you aren't interested in such things, fine. But please don't be insulting to those who are.

[Thomas]

"Abogado del Diablo

Here's an exercise for you to consider. Try to step outside yourself for a moment and consider that everyone who holds to a certain set of "beliefs" about "man and [insert name of deity or impersonal force or essence, etc. here]" does so with the personal experience that those "beliefs," whatever they may be, are real to them. By what means would you propose to unwind that reality and substitute your own?

Do you understand that "Gnosticism" doesn't ring true for me? Why is that? Think carefully about your answer.

I deal in "beliefs" about external reality. I have conclusions about what is more likely from the evidence I've seen and considered, but I don't think those are "beliefs" in the sense you keep coming back to. The Orthodox journey starts with the nature of identity and how we use language and what words represent. Consequently, the difference between Orthodoxy and religious speculation ("gnosticism") is one of method rather than belief, which is why Orthodoxy is pan-cultural. If you aren't interested in such things, fine. But please don't be insulting to those who are."

My point is that your responses are couched in such general terms as to render meaningful discussion impossible.

Please do not accuse me of being insulting - if you don't like being challenged, then don't post, but don't assume that because I choose not to agree with you, that constitutes an insult. I think on balance what has been said about orthodoxy consitutes a significantly higher incidence of insult, generally.

If gnosticism has a definition, perhaps you will provide it, trhen perhaps we can have some meaningful discussion - but I sense you have decided orthodoxy has nothing to offer?

Thomas

[Thomas]

the difference between Gnosticism and religious literalism ("orthodoxy") is one of method rather than belief,

Case in point.

'religious literalism' and 'orthodoxy' are not synonyms - it's a discreet way of associating fundamentalism and orthodoxy.

If I was to say "religious fantasy ("gnosticism") I think the same point would apply.

Method is dependent upon an object, othwerwise it is pointless. The object determines the belief, creed, whatever ... unless one is saying one believes in nothing.

Thomaa

[Thomas]

Gnosteric's question: would he be welcome.

My reply:

Yes. And as welcome I would be curious as to what drew him.

Where's the insult in that?

Thomas