Would paradise on earth really be paradise?

[Tao_Equus]

I agree that in a very real sense Mankind is very much defined by the hardships of living. Remove them and we would not, could not be what we are. But the very concept of "paradise" is so obviously a load of tosh dreamt up for various reasons to make people "accept their lot", that it is a subject completely unworthy of serious debate. It really is tooth fairy land.


tao

[mee]

paradise was a reality for the first human couple, Adam and Eve.

Their home was the garden of Eden. (Genesis 2:7-23)

Although that Paradise was lost, belief in a future paradise—in a new world without the problems of today is not just a dream.

It is solidly based on the promises contained in the Bible.

and yes it will be on EARTH



Speaking of those who will live in Paradise, the Bible states:

"They will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage." (Isaiah 65:21)

Yes, "they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble; for the very mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken it."—Micah 4:4.

Is our earthly existence meant to be only a passing phase?

As the first-century Jewish philosopher Philo held, is it to be just "a brief, often unfortunate, episode" in a journey to a spirit realm?

Or did God have something else in mind when he created the earth and put humans on it in paradise conditions?

Can mankind find genuine spiritual fulfillment and bliss right here on earth?


Why not examine what the Bible says about this subject? You may well conclude, as millions already have, that to hope for a restored earthly paradise is reasonable indeed.


but maybe thats for the christian thread

[Eclectic Mystic]

Tao, I notice that the supposed impossibility of paradise is also used by others to make people accept their lot. That seems even worse to me.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Actually the reality is, that if there is no challenge, there is no humanity (in this current plane of existence), and no purpose for living. We are here to grow (don't ask me why), and from that, we move on. So, no. Paradise on Earth, would only make us reach for the stars..

The opening argument says that paradise isn't paradise, and infers from this that there cannot be paradise. That's circular reasoning. The idea of paradise is one in which events are generally positive. This cannot nullify the purpose for living, unless the purpose of life is suffering in part. The idea of paradise excludes that possibility altogether. It says the purpose of life is to live.

You're saying the purpose of life isn't just to live. You think we are intimately incompatible with Utopias. Nevertheless, Utopia is Utopia.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I agree that in a very real sense Mankind is very much defined by the hardships of living. Remove them and we would not, could not be what we are. But the very concept of "paradise" is so obviously a load of tosh dreamt up for various reasons to make people "accept their lot", that it is a subject completely unworthy of serious debate. It really is tooth fairy land.


tao

Paradise is a lot easier to pull off if it doesn't have be directly adjacent to this sphere. It's hard to see how Utopia can follow logically and pragmatically from this functional paradigm. But remove the constraints of custom and things get a lot more elastic. The field of possibility is really huge. Ginormous, actually. The subset of what is practically, functionally, pragmatically possible is much, much smaller. Lions still need to eat lambs, though, so that's a kink.

Chris

[AndrewX]

"Et in Arcadia ego ..."

[mee]

Would paradise on earth really be paradise?


yes it would
And the One seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new." Also, he says: "Write, because these words are faithful and true REVELATION 21;5

[intrepidlover]

We are all getting lofty and addressing the topic with our intellect. Yes we would like to learn new things indefinitely. We might like to become fully skilled on every musical instrument for example. We might like to excel in every kind of sport. In fact there is a virtually limitless number of skills that we could master. All this would take time -- a lot of time -- even if in a perfect world it would be easy, relative to our current understanding, to achieve these goals.

There is great variety in natural scenery. I would like to visit every place on earth. This itself would take many lifetimes.

In my current corporeal state, my most constant and abiding unfulfilled desire is to view the naked body of, and make love to, every pretty girl I see. Did Hugh Hefner ever have this natural desire sated? I think he was largely limited to Caucasion Americans. Perhaps he longed to make love with girls of every race but never had the opportunity. And how about the big taboo -- making love to little children of all ages. Did he regret not being able to do this as it would have landed him in jail quick-smart.

In an earthly paradise, could I have one or more wives who remained with me and sexually faithful to me for life, yet still make love to every girl (or man or beast I suppose) to whom I was attracted?

I enjoy corporeal existence. If I lived for tens of thousands of years there would not be time to see and do everything that I would like to. You can keep your "non-self." I have no desire to be released from my body, except for the purpose of meeting with angels and doing a bit of astral travelling perhaps.

[mee]

[quote=intrepidlover;163987]

If I lived for tens of thousands of years there would not be time to see and do everything that I would like to. quote]



According to the promise of the bible , those who will go on to inherit a paradise earth will have EVERLASTING LIFE


But of cause those people would be willing to do things inline with Gods ways.

lots of time for taking in knowledge about things .

[arthra]

Paradise is friom an ancient Persian word para-deiza as I recall ...it means a walled garden. I think in peoples minds the concept is proabbly related to the Garden of Eden. But anyway.. I think myself the concept of teh Kingdom of God on earth...means there will be a greater oneness of humanity and an end to war where the lamb and the lion can peacefully coexist as in the peaceable kingdom idea. Quakers had this idea



Baha'is have a concept o fthe Ridwan Garden..which means the Garden of Paradise.. The Ridwan Garden was on an island in the Tigris river on the outskirts of Bagdad where Baha'u'llah declared His Mission to a few close relatives and this event is celebrated in the Baha'i world in April to this day.

The concept of immortality or everlasting life is a spiritual one in my view not that the physical body will last forever but your soul will attain to nearness to God and "salvation".

- Art

[mee]

Originally Posted by arthra

Paradise is friom an ancient Persian word para-deiza as I recall ...it means a walled garden. I think in peoples minds the concept is proabbly related to the Garden of Eden. But anyway.. I think myself the concept of teh Kingdom of God on earth...means there will be a greater oneness of humanity and an end to war where the lamb and the lion can peacefully coexist as in the peaceable kingdom idea. Quakers had this idea



Baha'is have a concept o fthe Ridwan Garden..which means the Garden of Paradise.. The Ridwan Garden was on an island in the Tigris river on the outskirts of Bagdad where Baha'u'llah declared His Mission to a few close relatives and this event is celebrated in the Baha'i world in April to this day.

- Art

Yes ,true paradise would not only mean a park-like garden , but also no more war ,and even no more death, and peace would prevail, and it is a sure hope from the promise of what the bible reallly teaches. and your picture brings this verse in the bible to my mind


The wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea." (Isaiah 11:6-9)


Do these words not touch the heart? Notice that the peace described here results from the knowledge of Jehovah.



more is involved than mere safety from wild animals. The knowledge of Jehovah will not change animals, but it will affect people


Accurate knowledge, the knowledge of Jehovah, has changed personalities. (Colossians 3:9, 10)


Formerly violent people have become peaceable. (Romans 12:2; Ephesians 4:17-24)

These developments have now affected millions because Isaiah’s prophecy has come to include a rapidly increasing number of Christians with an earthly hope. (Psalm 37:29; Isaiah 60:22)


These have learned to look to the time when the whole earth will be restored as a secure, peaceful paradise, according to God’s original purpose.Matthew 6:9, 10; 2 Peter 3:13.


"They will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."Isaiah 2:4.

At that time the eyes of the blind ones will be opened, and the very ears of the deaf ones will be unstopped.

At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness."—Isaiah 35:5, 6.

"[God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore."—Revelation 21:4.

"No resident will say: ‘I am sick.’"—Isaiah 33:24.

"Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor."—Job 33:25.

"The gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."—Romans 6:23.
"Everyone exercising faith in him [will] . . . have everlasting life."—John 3:16.

.

[Dharmaatmaa]

If no one minds, I'd say my opinion on so-call'd Paradise. All the opinions does smell very anthropomorphic, if it's possible to say so. When reading the above situated posts I was expected something like that.

Has anyone ever thought why religion is so powerful in Orient? I'm Russian. Is it Orient? Nevertheless, I know something of Orient. And I wanna say religion is on the same level as science here. Maybe it sounds strange. Its authority is the same as the science's. Why? Of cause, not because here live stupid or unserious, uneducated people. The answer is: because religion de facto (if it's correct) must be founded on a scientifical earth (humus). The teaching of paradise has its own found, and very intellectual, you know.

It was said that paradise "is reaching the point/place/time you would rather be in other than the point that you are at". What does the word 'point' mean? I was tought it means any place. If to understand it this way, I'm not sure that'd be correct and philosophically truely. But if to say 'condition' instead of 'point', I'll be perfectly agree with Truthseeker.

Every culture from the very early days of history had common, alike paradise-teaching. Scandinavian Valgalla and Nifelheim, Greek Gades with its three fields, Islamic Janna, and finally Indian Kamaloka and Deva-chan. With first sight it appears to be meant as a place, but specialist would never be so limited-minded to think so even uno momento!
For example, in India people till today do believe in Kamaloka and Devachan. The Kamaloka (kama - god of phisical, 'flesh' love, god of sexual wish; loka - just a place) stands for Hell. But any educated brahman knows that kamaloka has its secret (for usual people) meaning. They found out that in our psychica there is an 'organ' to be responsible for 'wish' and wanting to do sex. It's Kama. So kamaloka is just the place where kama stays after we leave the body. And Devachan (the country of Devas, Gods) - our Paradise - stands for the most progressive and altruistic part of our soul.

I do believe we shouldn't think Paradise is a place. It's a state of consciousness, undoutedly.

[Dharmaatmaa]

If no one minds, I'd say my opinion on so-call'd Paradise. All the opinions does smell very anthropomorphic, if it's possible to say so. When reading the above situated posts I was expected something like that.

Has anyone ever thought why religion is so powerful in Orient? I'm Russian. Is it Orient? Nevertheless, I know something of Orient. And I wanna say religion is on the same level as science here. Maybe it sounds strange. Its authority is the same as the science's. Why? Of cause, not because here live stupid or unserious, uneducated people. The answer is: because religion de facto (if it's correct) must be founded on a scientifical earth (humus). The teaching of paradise has its own found, and very intellectual, you know.

It was said that paradise "is reaching the point/place/time you would rather be in other than the point that you are at". What does the word 'point' mean? I was tought it means any place. If to understand it this way, I'm not sure that'd be correct and philosophically truely. But if to say 'condition' instead of 'point', I'll be perfectly agree with Truthseeker.

Every culture from the very early days of history had common, alike paradise-teaching. Scandinavian Valgalla and Nifelheim, Greek Gades with its three fields, Islamic Janna, and finally Indian Kamaloka and Deva-chan. With first sight it appears to be meant as a place, but specialist would never be so limited-minded to think so even uno momento!
For example, in India people till today do believe in Kamaloka and Devachan. The Kamaloka (kama - god of phisical, 'flesh' love, god of sexual wish; loka - just a place) stands for Hell. But any educated brahman knows that kamaloka has its secret (for usual people) meaning. They found out that in our psychica there is an 'organ' to be responsible for 'wish' and wanting to do sex. It's Kama. So kamaloka is just the place where kama stays after we leave the body. And Devachan (the country of Devas, Gods) - our Paradise - stands for the most progressive and altruistic part of our soul.

I do believe we shouldn't think Paradise is a place. It's a state of consciousness, undoutedly.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Dharmaatmaa

If no one minds, I'd say my opinion on so-call'd Paradise. All the opinions does smell very anthropomorphic, if it's possible to say so. When reading the above situated posts I was expected something like that.

Has anyone ever thought why religion is so powerful in Orient? I'm Russian. Is it Orient? Nevertheless, I know something of Orient. And I wanna say religion is on the same level as science here. Maybe it sounds strange. Its authority is the same as the science's. Why? Of cause, not because here live stupid or unserious, uneducated people. The answer is: because religion de facto (if it's correct) must be founded on a scientifical earth (humus). The teaching of paradise has its own found, and very intellectual, you know.

It was said that paradise "is reaching the point/place/time you would rather be in other than the point that you are at". What does the word 'point' mean? I was tought it means any place. If to understand it this way, I'm not sure that'd be correct and philosophically truely. But if to say 'condition' instead of 'point', I'll be perfectly agree with Truthseeker.

Every culture from the very early days of history had common, alike paradise-teaching. Scandinavian Valgalla and Nifelheim, Greek Gades with its three fields, Islamic Janna, and finally Indian Kamaloka and Deva-chan. With first sight it appears to be meant as a place, but specialist would never be so limited-minded to think so even uno momento!
For example, in India people till today do believe in Kamaloka and Devachan. The Kamaloka (kama - god of phisical, 'flesh' love, god of sexual wish; loka - just a place) stands for Hell. But any educated brahman knows that kamaloka has its secret (for usual people) meaning. They found out that in our psychica there is an 'organ' to be responsible for 'wish' and wanting to do sex. It's Kama. So kamaloka is just the place where kama stays after we leave the body. And Devachan (the country of Devas, Gods) - our Paradise - stands for the most progressive and altruistic part of our soul.

I do believe we shouldn't think Paradise is a place. It's a state of consciousness, undoutedly.

Agreed, Dharmaatmaa (Spirit of Truth). This kind of understanding is the only one that makes sense from a point of view both intelligent and spiritually aligned. This is why the religions which inaccurately and fretfully preach a fear-based mis-understanding of holy scriptures are so unhealthy, and so damaging to humankind.

To teach that the Immortal Soul is something that we, the mortal personality can CONTROL ... not that our fate is in our OWN hands, but that all it takes is blind faith and lip service to choose, not simply our own future, but even the fate of our Immortal Soul ... this is certainly the greatest sin of the clergy. And this is because the teachings of the Immortality of the Soul (when wedded with Spirit) have been replaced with teachings which perpetuate evil (if not quite intentionally so), through human ignorance ... ignorance enshrouded by fear.

Teach a person that her fates lies in her OWN hands, and you empower her to accomplish all that God intends and wishes for us. Teach her that her salvation depends on creedalism, upon an exclusivity when it comes to religious worship (leading to pride and smug self-righteousness) ... and of course, restrict access to any other teachings on spiritual matters, persecute those who espouse any other doctrine than one's own, and hammer over & over again that only within a divinely ordained priesthood does there exist any real spiritual authority -- and what have you accomplished?

Creatively imagine reversing your position in time by 2000 or even 3000 years, imagine all that Humanity's greatest Teachers & Saviors had in mind for our future, including peace, cooperation and enlightenment for all (and not just for a privileged, `chosen' few) ... and suddenly you find yourself one giant step closer to Truth than any of today's Abrahamic religions are quite ready to publicly preach.

Paradise cannot yet exist in the `earthly' realms - the three lower worlds of mind, emotions & physical body - because Humanity isn't quite ready to stop being selfish and yield to the Divine Laws that have always governed this planet ... within the Heart and Mind of God. Collectively, we form the Creative Center upon the planet; if we were to suddenly fall in line with the Higher Will for Planet Earth, we might save ourselves hundreds, thousands or even millions of years of continued suffering ... though I like to believe that conditions of International Peace are attainable even within our current lifetime.

We will resist the Invitation, however, because we can. Just as people lie, steal and otherwise wrong or take advantage of one another because then can ... so will the big corporations, banking & lending institutions, and even the large religious entities continue to exploit the very conditions that have been provided for us to learn the Divine Balance -- or Spiritual Economy.

In the latter economy, there are still assets, holdings and such a thing as investments. However, these are understood not in terms of the exchange rate and various quantities or aggregations of strictly material wealth; rather, in a spiritualized economy (I don't mean anything LIKE a `fully enlightened' economic situation -- just one whose values have been readjusted) ... in a spiritualized economy the needs of the Whole are always considered first, without ever overlooking the vital and necessary contributions of every single individual.

People living in the many countries of the world continue to suffer needlessly and excessively, simply because we refuse to simply agree that GREED and exploitation is a bad thing. Wal-mart is a wonderful, shining example of just this kind of sad condition ... in the hearts and minds of what some people foolishely, or blindly believe is the "greatest of all nations." They are too busy extolling PAST virtues, or cheering for the PAST accomplishments (heroic deeds, individual sacrifices, etc.) of their particular nation ... and if you ask them, would THEY be willing to trade places and go live in another, poorer country, they look at you like you're crazy.

I haven't done this, but a member of my family makes regular trips with her church (and partnered churches) to visit India, the Philippines, and other countries if I recall correctly. While there, they focus less on missionizing the `savage, uncultured, unenlightened' backwards village-folk, and more on literally BUILDING things which require people-power and cooperation. They meet the people where they are, instead of attempting to change them into little clones of themselves. And they most certainly lift these people up, spiritually, because they "teach them to fish," instead of just handing out meals for a day.

It's amazing what folks understand `charity' to be, sometimes. We still have some considerable confusion and misunderstanding regarding the difference and relationship between generosity and greed. Humanity's Teachers know only Generosity. They think, speak and act in this Spirit, 100% of the time, every day, for literally hundreds of years at a time. Whether in or out of incarnation, they serve Awakened ... with no interest at all in a `separated self.' Those who are still largely motivated by greed serve the little self almost exclusively. The reason they get away with it, lifetime after lifetime, world cycle after world cycle, is difficult to understand ... and I would think exceedingly so for any teaching that has forsaken the Doctrine of Cycles.

But if we realize that all things, all people, all planets must BALANCE, in Time ... then we can begin to ask the very reasonable and vital question, "WHEN?"

When is soon enough? and not When is too late.

It is because we continue to ask that latter question that people suffer needlessly, nations war against nations, and individuals set out intentionally to exploit one another, motivated by greed - greed - greed.

Probably the most crucial three words that I have ever heard put together in my life ... are not I love you, but Reverse the flow. If we begin to do this, and continue to do this, and look for ways to do this which have never even occurred to us before, we can do amazing things - and relatively quickly.

We cannot suddenly achieve Utopia tomorrow, or bring Earth thousands of years ahead of itself, overnight. Though possible, this is quite unlikely. But we certainly can make a tremendous difference. Some of the change we can see or feel immediately, and other types of change occur through the planting of a seed, with a little bit of watering ... while the Divine Rays from `above' may be relied upon to do the rest. They always do; it is Their NATURE.

Our nature, as you pointed out, Spirit of Truth, consists of both the desire self, as well as the Soul, the altruistic and `selfless' portion. We need each other, as Humanity cannot learn about and seek to embody the Divine WILL (which is really a HIGHER desire), without having a separate, individual desire of its own. And thus Humanity as ONE exists within a very unique, necessary relationship to the other two Divine Kingdoms (Will, and Love-Wisdom, or Head and Heart).

Ours is a creative function, both higher and lower (again, the latter reflects or mirrors the former). Seems we do much better in accomplishing this when we cooperate, and focus on a Group GOAL, than when we squabble, brag about individual accomplishments and resort to seedy self-promotion (or the bandying about of one's OWN ideas, rather than listening to others') ... but the real killer is a lack of any real focus on common goals, on a Group Purpose.

We find purpose and fulfilment, including a field of Service, in civic groups as well as religious, and the fact that the World Teacher has already arrived in terms of mental and astral-emotional expression should be obvious to anyone who's paying attention. Last time I checked, there were literally tens of THOUSANDS of SERVICE groups existing throughout the world. These consist of any grouping of people, as few as 2 or 3, who are united with the common goal of benefitting others, especially where their goal is to reach the human SPIRIT -- regardless as to what shape their particular Service takes. And some of these groups are millions strong.

I believe our greatest hope for a sustainable and peaceful future for this planet rests with those who serve in these various groups (organized within every field imaginable) ... as well as with the Forces, Powers and individuals that inspire & empower them. There is a mantram, the Mantram of Unification, which especially applies in this case. This, and The Great Invocation, are two of the most powerful tools we have to assist in the Cause ... in addition to continued participation in one or more of these Service groups.

Let Love and Light and Power restore the Plan on Earth.

Namaskara

[17th Angel]

Would hell on Earth, really be hell?