Wrath of God pt 2 (What's your god like?)

[Dor]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I don't see how God's grace can be anything but unconditional, including not depending upon the condition of 'belief.'

Ok Im not trying to be mean here but where in the world did that come from??
Its directly opposite of what the Bible says.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Nah, I think we ought to call them "loving Christians." That is, afterall, what "they" believe Jesus taught concerning G-d, including me.

How about, instead, we call the people who think G-d hates everybody except a minor fraction of His total creation "hateful Christians?" Yeah, I think that would do nicely.

How about calling the people who follow the Bible and Christ Christians and the ones who dont Apostate. Dont think youd like that any more than Luna liked ne calling people heretics.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Dor

How about calling the people who follow the Bible and Christ Christians and the ones who dont Apostate. Dont think youd like that any more than Luna liked ne calling people heretics.

I don't think I've seen you call anyone a heretic.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by -James-

No, I never said w/o jesus, Silas. I said w/o an intellectual knowledge of the man. I suggested that his "Spirit" is available to all. That's was/is my stance, man. I could be wrong, but so could you. We simply can't know these things with all certainty. No point in making issue of it, is there?


James

I agree with you that Christ is available to all people as well. I also agree that it isnt an interllectual knowledge of Jesus that saves. The demons and Satan himself fully knows that Jesus is God and Sovereign ruler of the universe, yet they arent saved. What saves is repentence and faith (in Christ alone and not in yourself). All that said, didnt you say that Muslims and Buddist can go to Heaven without forsaking their religion and turning to Christ?

[-James-]

You turn to Christ when you allow him in your heart, allow him to change you through his Spirit, and be made new. To lose your old life is to gain a new one in Christ's love. Our difference in opinion is that you tend to think that he only comes to those who know his name, but he came for the lost sheep, and it is by his Spirit that they can follow him. It would be ideal for all to embrace the Christian gospel, but not all will. Even so, whatever religion, be it Islam, or Buddhism all can know him by his Spirit, even w/o a knowledge of the man, Imo. He isn't just in a book, and he wasn't only present during his natural time on earth, he is ever present and unchanging, and all can come to know him through his Spirit, Imo.

You don't have to agree, Silas. I'm not asking you to, I'm only giving my personal view on the subject. Unless you can convince me that a person must know his name as "Jesus" and not know him in the "Spirit" which he came in, then I won't change my position.


James

[Silas]

James

You turn to Christ when you allow him in your heart, allow him to change you through his Spirit, and be made new.

Please KNOW that Jesus isnt some lost lonely god looking for people to "allow" him anywhere. God does the drawing and people will come! "Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power" (Psa. 110:3).

Our difference in opinion is that you tend to think that he only comes to those who know his name, but he came for the lost sheep, and it is by his Spirit that they can follow him.

You misunderstand me. The lost sheep dont know His name until there hear it and are born again (John 10:27). It works as thus: The gospel goes out and all who are appointed to eternal life believe (Acts 13:48).

It would be ideal for all to embrace the Christian gospel, but not all will.

All should, but all wont; like you said. There is nothing stopping a person from beleiving than his/her own desire to not believe. Those who hear the gospel and spurn God's grace will have greater judgements.

Even so, whatever religion, be it Islam, or Buddhism all can know him by his Spirit, even w/o a knowledge of the man, Imo.

In your opinion, yes. However, that is not what the God of the Bible teaches. There is only one way to God and that is through Jesus. If anyone attempts to reach God another way, they would prove to be a theif and a robber for attempting to gain what isnt theres - namely the gift of salvation.

He isn't just in a book, and he wasn't only present during his natural time on earth, he is ever present and unchanging, and all can come to know him through his Spirit, Imo.

See why I said you arent a Christian? I'm not trying to make fun or play games, honestly. In fact, I write this with fear. You have not been taught of God and unless you repent and believe the Biblical gospel, you are an enemy of God.

You don't have to agree, Silas. I'm not asking you to, I'm only giving my personal view on the subject. Unless you can convince me that a person must know his name as "Jesus" and not know him in the "Spirit" which he came in, then I won't change my position.

"God commands everyone everwhere to repent and believe the gospel because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31).

[-James-]

Originally Posted by Silas

James

You turn to Christ when you allow him in your heart, allow him to change you through his Spirit, and be made new.

Please KNOW that Jesus isnt some lost lonely god looking for people to "allow" him anywhere. God does the drawing and people will come! "Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power" (Psa. 110:3).

Exactly, silas!

Our difference in opinion is that you tend to think that he only comes to those who know his name, but he came for the lost sheep, and it is by his Spirit that they can follow him.

You misunderstand me. The lost sheep dont know His name until there hear it and are born again (John 10:27). It works as thus: The gospel goes out and all who are appointed to eternal life believe (Acts 13:48).

His sheep here his Voice, indeed. Pray tell what that means to you Silas. The gospel is good news is it not? Faith in his "Voice" is like hearing a calming whisper in the dark. (Love)

It would be ideal for all to embrace the Christian gospel, but not all will.

All should, but all wont; like you said. There is nothing stopping a person from beleiving than his/her own desire to not believe. Those who hear the gospel and spurn God's grace will have greater judgements.


I'm content, silas. I have peace within knowing God's Love, and I'm not bitter or resentful, or angry, or even mildly offended by you disagreeing with me. I AM I little taken back by your dispostion, tho.

Even so, whatever religion, be it Islam, or Buddhism all can know him by his Spirit, even w/o a knowledge of the man, Imo.


In your opinion, yes. However, that is not what the God of the Bible teaches. There is only one way to God and that is through Jesus. If anyone attempts to reach God another way, they would prove to be a theif and a robber for attempting to gain what isnt theres - namely the gift of salvation.

That is correct.. . .."Through" Jesus who's Spirit is in the world.

He isn't just in a book, and he wasn't only present during his natural time on earth, he is ever present and unchanging, and all can come to know him through his Spirit, Imo.

See why I said you arent a Christian? I'm not trying to make fun or play games, honestly. In fact, I write this with fear. You have not been taught of God and unless you repent and believe the Biblical gospel, you are an enemy of God.

Is he not "Alpha and Omega", silas? I have repented, and I do believe the Gospel of Christ. I am no enemy to God, nor to you unless you are making me such with your own mind.

You don't have to agree, Silas. I'm not asking you to, I'm only giving my personal view on the subject. Unless you can convince me that a person must know his name as "Jesus" and not know him in the "Spirit" which he came in, then I won't change my position.

"God commands everyone everwhere to repent and believe the gospel because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31).

His gospel is one of Love and righteousness, not one of fear and torment. His sheep know his "voice" of this I am certain.

Your'e fighting a battle with yourself, bro. I'm only telling things the way I see them. I may be wrong on some issue's, but I am not wrong about God's Love, man. He is present and calling all to embrace him. (Christ)

(My comments in red)


James

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Dor

Ok Im not trying to be mean here but where in the world did that come from??
Its directly opposite of what the Bible says.

Hi Dor, I know you are not being mean and that's a fair question. I've been thinking for a couple of hours how best to answer you, and I don't think what I'm going to say is going to satisfy you, but here goes.

I think that God's unconditional love for all of us is very much what the Bible says, in fact, I can find barely a passage that does not say this to me. I thought about giving you quotes that I think especially support this, as I have done in the past, but these would probably be ignored or else it would be said that I don't understand them, or am reading them 'out of context.' The thing is, we always bring our own heart and mind to the Bible, and it's not possible to read something as if in a vacuum.

Let it be said that I agree that my understanding of Christianity involves faith in our salvation by/through Chirst and repentence. I don't think it means holding to some very narrow doctrine on exactly what this means. But grace is by definition unmerited, and that includes unmerited by having some kind of correct belief. As I said to Silas elsewhere, one can't turn to and have a relationship with God if one does not know God so yes, the first step is to know God, to trust God. And I agree that is prompting of the Holy Spirit that make us trun to God in the first place.

I don't believe, because of God's love, justice, and mercy, that anyone is ever so completely lost that they can't turn to God at any time, including the time of our judgement. Yes, we need to accept the gift, but the offer is never held back...IMO even after we die. The Bible says that every knee will bow, and all will return to God, if not in this life then in the next.

We are to love each other and that love is the Way.

OK, my kids are begging me to go ride bikes...later!

[earl]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Dor, I know you are not being mean and that's a fair question. I've been thinking for a couple of hours how best to answer you, and I don't think what I'm going to say is going to satisfy you, but here goes.

I think that God's unconditional love for all of us is very much what the Bible says, in fact, I can find barely a passage that does not say this to me. I thought about giving you quotes that I think especially support this, as I have done in the past, but these would probably be ignored or else it would be said that I don't understand them, or am reading them 'out of context.' The thing is, we always bring our own heart and mind to the Bible, and it's not possible to read something as if in a vacuum.

Let it be said that I agree that my understanding of Christianity involves faith in our salvation by/through Chirst and repentence. I don't think it means holding to some very narrow doctrine on exactly what this means. But grace is by definition unmerited, and that includes unmerited by having some kind of correct belief. As I said to Silas elsewhere, one can't turn to and have a relationship with God if one does not know God so yes, the first step is to know God, to trust God. And I agree that is prompting of the Holy Spirit that make us trun to God in the first place.

I don't believe, because of God's love, justice, and mercy, that anyone is ever so completely lost that they can't turn to God at any time, including the time of our judgement. Yes, we need to accept the gift, but the offer is never held back...IMO even after we die. The Bible says that every knee will bow, and all will return to God, if not in this life then in the next.

We are to love each other and that love is the Way.

OK, my kids are begging me to go ride bikes...later!

Gee, I just got back from a bike ride. Bringing who we are to reading the Bible to me is 1 of the essences of lectio divina but for it to do its job on us we must set aside our preconceptions and dwell contemplatively upon the passages. Meanings evlove as we evolve, as we are shaped by life itself and the whisperings of Spirit. Best bet though for me as to what meaning to derive from nearly any reading of any sacred text is to first center yourself in a loving, open, receptive state and then ask yourself, "how would Love answer my question?" earl

[Francis king]

I have a problem with a wrathful God... u see, the story as I understood it was...

jesus christ was a young man who was quite devout as a child, but was pretty mediocre til he was about 30 and he had a religious experience,and then he decided then to tell ppl about his God... he healed the sick, and cured the lame, and made blind ppl see, he wanted to see that we all lived in a peaceful society where we looked after the poor and the sick, and then u throw this miserable God chap into the mix, and for me, that's when it goes horribly wrong...

I can't believe someone who wants you to turn the other cheek and look at ur neighbours as brothers, someone who'd miraculously feed thousands of ppl and make sure a young couple getting married had enough wine for the festivities would have a God which burned and bullied humans into submission...

so, instead then of this wrathful male patriarch God, my God and I think, the God of Jesus, isn't like that... instead, I see God as this beatific manna, an all embracing, loving spirit, a little bit like wholesome laughter with friends, or a mothers' fond smile for her child, a something which, to be without, feels cold, and harsh, and will leave u crying in the wilderness for just a taste of it... truely knowing God, it's like being in a fire but not being burned, being swallowed up by a glittering sea of beauty but still being able to breathe, and I can't understand why ppl think that this great amazing force of love and beauty could be such a malevolent tormenter of peasants...

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Francis king

I have a problem with a wrathful God... u see, the story as I understood it was...

jesus christ was a young man who was quite devout as a child, but was pretty mediocre til he was about 30 and he had a religious experience,and then he decided then to tell ppl about his God... he healed the sick, and cured the lame, and made blind ppl see, he wanted to see that we all lived in a peaceful society where we looked after the poor and the sick, and then u throw this miserable God chap into the mix, and for me, that's when it goes horribly wrong...

I can't believe someone who wants you to turn the other cheek and look at ur neighbours as brothers, someone who'd miraculously feed thousands of ppl and make sure a young couple getting married had enough wine for the festivities would have a God which burned and bullied humans into submission...

so, instead then of this wrathful male patriarch God, my God and I think, the God of Jesus, isn't like that... instead, I see God as this beatific manna, an all embracing, loving spirit, a little bit like wholesome laughter with friends, or a mothers' fond smile for her child, a something which, to be without, feels cold, and harsh, and will leave u crying in the wilderness for just a taste of it... truely knowing God, it's like being in a fire but not being burned, being swallowed up by a glittering sea of beauty but still being able to breathe, and I can't understand why ppl think that this great amazing force of love and beauty could be such a malevolent tormenter of peasants...

You had it wrong from the beginning.. Jesus was never mediocre. Try reading the gospel instead of listening to some made up version... The rest I didnt bother reading.. so much blah blah blah that is spouted today how they "think" Christ was and none of them bother reading it for themselves.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I don't think I've seen you call anyone a heretic.

I can think of one ex Episcopal Bishop.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think that God's unconditional love for all of us is very much what the Bible says, in fact, I can find barely a passage that does not say this to me. I thought about giving you quotes that I think especially support this, as I have done in the past, but these would probably be ignored or else it would be said that I don't understand them, or am reading them 'out of context.'

Well I would personally love to see them cause I do not know of any and am always willing to see things I have missed.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Dor

Well I would personally love to see them cause I do not know of any and am always willing to see things I have missed.

Romans 5:

1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we [a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we [b] boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we [c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.


12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

To me this says very clearly that all are saved through Christ.

[Faithfulservant]

remember that MAN added chapters and verses.. read romans 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?* 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. 13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations"*) in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be." 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.