Wrath of God pt 2 (What's your god like?) - Page 3

lunamoth · 03-11-2007, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

remember that MAN added chapters and verses.. read romans 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?* 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. 13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations"*) in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be." 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

OK, but I don't see anything in there that says God's love for us all is conditional on anything. We are saved by grace through faith, evidenced in the fruit of the Spirt...but I don't see where there is a condition on God's love for us. We can turn to him in faith at any time, and God has a lot more time than we have on earth.

Time for bed...thank you for the conversations.

luna

Faithfulservant · 03-11-2007, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

OK, but I don't see anything in there that says God's love for us all is conditional on anything. We are saved by grace through faith, evidenced in the fruit of the Spirt...but I don't see where there is a condition on God's love for us. We can turn to him in faith at any time, and God has a lot more time than we have on earth.

Time for bed...thank you for the conversations.

luna

I guess Im confused I thought you were saying that all were saved..regardless of their belief.. Romans 4-5 are for the believers that have faith and believe that He is Lord that He rose from the dead after dying for the very sins that condemn us. In other words You have to have faith/belief in this

but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we [a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we [b] boast in the hope of the glory of God.

lunamoth · 03-11-2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I guess Im confused I thought you were saying that all were saved..regardless of their belief.. Romans 4-5 are for the believers that have faith and believe that He is Lord that He rose from the dead after dying for the very sins that condemn us. In other words You have to have faith/belief in this

but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we [a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we [b] boast in the hope of the glory of God.

This passage is about our faith in Christ in this life and I uphold it catagorically and completely.

I believe all eventually do return to God (all in all). What happens between this life and then I do not know, but if God is good and all powerful, then I can't imagine evil winning any of our souls. I know God and God is love. I don't know how it all works for all time, but I trust in God's goodness and mercy and forgiveness. I trust in a justice that takes into account our fragility, our brokenness, our fallen nature. I think Christ and Christianity is the only Way that clearly teaches forgiveness, which is what I see as the Way of eternal life. Christians have a special role here on this earth: to bear witness to Christ, to spread the love of Christ according to the gifts given to us, and carry on Christ's work of reconciliation in the world. Every knee will bow before Him, every voice will confess to God. We are all saved together.

I would never put someone in eternal exile from God because they did not get some piece of the puzzle in this life, did not believe or do some thing, even if they did not put their faith in Christ during this lifetime. How could God be less merciful?

Silas · 03-11-2007, 08:49 PM

Are you saying that the people in hell will eventually be in Heaven? If so, where do you get that from scripture Luna?

lunamoth · 03-11-2007, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Are you saying that the people in hell will eventually be in Heaven? If so, where do you get that from scripture Luna?

Q: What do we mean when we say that he descended to the dead?

A: We mean that he went to the departed and offered them also the benefits of redemption.

Silas · 03-11-2007, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Q: What do we mean when we say that he descended to the dead?

A: We mean that he went to the departed and offered them also the benefits of redemption.

Yes, that is one meaning of it. You didnt answer my question though. Are you saying that "ALL" people will eventually be in Heaven? If so, what is your scriptural evidence?

lunamoth · 03-11-2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Yes, that is one meaning of it. You didnt answer my question though. Are you saying that "ALL" people will eventually be in Heaven? If so, what is your scriptural evidence?

Yes, all will eventually be with God.

Silas, I have given such scriptural evidence and it has been ignored. I gave it to you in another thread and apparently it was too much of a bother for you to read it and respond. I gave such scripture above and was told essentially that I did not read it in context.

Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree about this. If you were God would you condemn me to eternal exile because I believe all will end up in God?

Silas · 03-11-2007, 09:12 PM

I honestly didnt see where you gave scriptural evidence. Please write at least one that I may see why you believe what you believe. About the question you asked, however, I believe that to be the crux of the issue here. You see, your view of scripture is man-centered, rather than God-centered. You see man's happiness more than God's glory, and that I believe, to be where you err. Please give me one scripture that says all men will be with God in Heaven.

Thanks!

juantoo3 · 03-11-2007, 09:13 PM

Kindest Regards, Dor!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

How about calling the people who follow the Bible and Christ Christians and the ones who dont Apostate.

Indeed! OF course, presuming Silas agrees with this, it would mean ya'll would have to accept outright about 90% of the people on here who claim to be Christian into the little exclusive club.

lunamoth · 03-11-2007, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

I honestly didnt see where you gave scriptural evidence. Please write at least one that I may see why you believe what you believe. About the question you asked, however, I believe that to be the crux of the issue here. You see, your view of scripture is man-centered, rather than God-centered. You see man's happiness more than God's glory, and that I believe, to be where you err. Please give me one scripture that says all men will be with God in Heaven.

Thanks!

You didn't answer my question.

Silas · 03-11-2007, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

You didn't answer my question.

I cant answer your question because I'm not God. I'm only a finite creature that believes the the God of the Bible is most holy and just and will always do what is right. Moreover, I believe he does every thing for His glory, even when its forgiving His enemies. Also, I believe as scripture teaches, that He forgives those who repent and trust in the provision He has made, namely Christ. I believe that God has a purpose for everything He made and it all works out in glorifying Him, whether it is found in those whom He saved to the paise and glory of His grace (Eph 1:6), or to those whom He designed for destruction (Pro 16:4). As the scriptures say, "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways" (Rom 11:33)! Your way and God's ways seem different. All that said, I should mention to you before you decide to send me the scriptures why you feel that "All" people will eventually be saved, that you should look at the word "all" in the greek. It is the word "Pas" and has two means: 1. All, i.e, everyone indivisually, 2., Collectively, i.e., all sorts of types. Context should be your rule when interpretating scripture. So what are the scriptures you use?

Silas · 03-11-2007, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Dor!

Indeed! OF course, presuming Silas agrees with this, it would mean ya'll would have to accept outright about 90% of the people on here who claim to be Christian into the little exclusive club.

I agree with Dor. As for what you said though, I disagree. Some of the people here who claim to be Christians have no idea of why they need a Savior and thus they have not been born again. This Christian walk is hard and not many find it. Most take the easy and broad road. This "Jesus is the only way" stuff is too mean for some to except and so they try to interpretate scripture differently in an attempt to both claim to be Christian, and make the Bible's truth, just another truth.

lunamoth · 03-11-2007, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

I cant answer your question because I'm not God. I'm only a finite creature that believes the the God of the Bible is most holy and just and will always do what is right. Moreover, I believe he does every thing for His glory, even when its forgiving His enemies. Also, I believe as scripture teaches, that He forgives those who repent and trust in the provision He has made, namely Christ. I believe that God has a purpose for everything He made and it all works out in glorifying Him, whether it is found in those whom He saved to the paise and glory of His grace (Eph 1:6), or to those whom He designed for destruction (Pro 16:4). As the scriptures say, "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways" (Rom 11:33)! Your way and God's ways seem different. All that said, I should mention to you before you decide to send me the scriptures why you feel that "All" people will eventually be saved, that you should look at the word "all" in the greek. It is the word "Pas" and has two means: 1. All, i.e, everyone indivisually, 2., Collectively, i.e., all sorts of types. Context should be your rule when interpretating scripture. So what are the scriptures you use?

I base it upon the character of God whom I meet in Jesus through the Gospels. If you want a supporting piece of scripture for this, the classic example is 1 Corinthians 15:28.

So, even if you were not God, if it were up to you would you condemn me to eternity apart from God because I believe that all will end up in God?

Silas · 03-11-2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I base it upon the character of God whom I meet in Jesus through the Gospels. If you want a supporting piece of scripture for this, the classic example is 1 Corinthians 15:28.

So, even if you were not God, if it were up to you would you condemn me to eternity apart from God because I believe that all will end up in God?

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." - 1Cor 15:28

How does that scripture show that all will eventually end up in Heaven? As for your question, I'll answer it like this: I am not God, therefore I cannot say what I would do. I already gave scriptures that said what God, the true and Living God, has already decided what will be done. I agree with His ways; even the ones I do not understand. In fact, I pray to be conformed more and more to Him that I may be more God-centered. God has already decided that those who spurn His grace and all those who break his laws, and all those who reject Jesus, will eternally be punished for their sins. I agree with that.

lunamoth · 03-11-2007, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." - 1Cor 15:28

How does that scripture show that all will eventually end up in Heaven? As for your question, I'll answer it like this: I am not God, therefore I cannot say what I would do. I already gave scriptures that said what God, the true and Living God, has already decided what will be done. I agree with His ways; even the ones I do not understand. In fact, I pray to be conformed more and more to Him that I may be more God-centered. God has already decided that those who spurn His grace and all those who break his laws, and all those who reject Jesus, will eternally be punished for their sins. I agree with that.

That scripture says that all will end up reconciled in God, it speaks of God's ultimate majesty and Christ's victory over all.