Wrath of God pt 2 (What's your god like?) - Page 4

Silas · 03-11-2007, 10:01 PM

Where does it say that all people will end up reconciled to God in the verse or context of the verse? How did you come to that conclussion?

lunamoth · 03-11-2007, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Where does it say that all people will end up reconciled to God in the verse or context of the verse? How did you come to that conclussion?

It says that God is victorious and all ends up in Him, through Christ. I'm not sure how else I can say it Silas. It is a theme that runs thoughout the whole Bible. If you don't see it then you don't see it. *shrug*

Dor · 03-11-2007, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

It says that God is victorious and all ends up in Him, through Christ. I'm not sure how else I can say it Silas. It is a theme that runs thoughout the whole Bible. If you don't see it then you don't see it. *shrug*

because it is not there. Is why we do not see it.

Well I see that God is victorious but Universalism is not biblical. Sorry.

Faithfulservant · 03-11-2007, 10:37 PM

Listen.. I will back down to anything to keep peace as long as its not a salvation issue.. you are teaching that everyone will be saved even if they dont willingly make the choice to repent and call Christ Lord and believe that He IS risen from the dead.. I know that you believe otherwise but it is not biblical according to my bible and its dangerous and if someone perhaps goes to hell because of something you said you WILL have to deal with it According to my bible I HAVE to tell you that you are wrong. Or I am disobeying my Lord.

You posted Romans 5 and I showed you in Romans 4 where Paul said you HAVE to believe and have faith that Christ died and resurrected and you are ignoring it completely let me do it again. The two chapters are ONE thought not two.. the biggest diservice man did to the bible was seperate it in chapter and verse.

ROMANS 4 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
ROMANS 5Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we [a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we [b] boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Ya'll can ban me but my conscience would be clear. The only judge I need to worry about is God.

Silas · 03-11-2007, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

It says that God is victorious and all ends up in Him, through Christ. I'm not sure how else I can say it Silas. It is a theme that runs thoughout the whole Bible. If you don't see it then you don't see it. *shrug*

A theme that runs throughout the whole Bible? I dont know about that. Lets take this scripture in context, starting with verse 18, to see more clearly what verse 28 is talking about.

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. - 1Cor 15:18-23

What do we have so far? We have the fact that if Christ didnt raise from the dead, the Chrsitian faith is a joke - it is futile. But, since He [Christ] did raise from the grave, all those who have fallen asleep in Him, or died in the faith, will also raise to life. Since all, i.e., the "all" is in context of the previous sentence - "all the ones who trust in Christ," have sinned in Adam, then "all," i.e., the same "all" being discussed - those in the faith, shall be made alive in Christ. Lets continue:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. - 1Cor 15:23-28

What do we have here? We have verse 23 begining with same "all" of the previous verses, i.e., those in the faith (since it is faith that saves and places us in Christ). After this we see the rest of the verses speaking about God the Father putting everything in subjection to Christ' athority. Nowhere in the vese does it talk about everyone going to Heaven eventually. Where do you see different?

Silas · 03-11-2007, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

because it is not there. Is why we do not see it.

Well I see that God is victorious but Universalism is not biblical. Sorry.

Dont be sorry. Way to contend for the truth!

lunamoth · 03-11-2007, 11:04 PM

Friends,

I have never tried to convince you that you need to believe this and I'm done putting myself out there for you to criticize and judge. I responded to the OP question, what is the character of God. God is unconditional love. I've said several times in several ways that I see no way for a God Who is Love to exile His creatures for eternity, and I've explained how I see the passages of the Bible as describing healing, restoring, and retuning for exile, and never eternal condemnation. You've told me in good conscience, and I believe you have only good intentions, that you fear my belief is a stumbling block to others. Fine, I will stop talking about it. I only explained it because I was asked to.

In His Peace,
luna

-James- · 03-11-2007, 11:06 PM

All things are under Christs authority, (By God) and yes he is the ONLY way to salvation. That's is not being debated to my understanding. All things are palced under his feet, and if he's destroying evil then in my mind, he's not destroying actual people, but the evil that is in them, through him i.e his Spirit who is in the world NOW.

Faith is not being debated, either. My faith is strong, Luna's is strong and our faith both rests is Christ. All can be saved through Christ, and apparently all will as it is written that Christ is not willing for any to perish, and if all things are subject to his rule, then who can resits, "every knee shall bow".

It certainly doesn't happen in this life, but we know nothing of the life to come, so perhaps Luna is right when she suggests that all will be saved. I myself do not know, nor does anyone else with any certainty.

Sorry for jumping in like that. My stay is short tho, as my son is here; I just wanted to give my 2c's, lol!

James

Dor · 03-11-2007, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

It says that God is victorious and all ends up in Him, through Christ. I'm not sure how else I can say it Silas. It is a theme that runs thoughout the whole Bible. If you don't see it then you don't see it. *shrug*

Ok Im really trying here but I need to ask a question here....
If all people end up with him why did he say....

Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

lunamoth · 03-11-2007, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Ok Im really trying here but I need to ask a question here....
If all people end up with him why did he say....

Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

My understanding of that passage is that a person has to deny that Love is of God and the Way (good), that forgiveness is good, that healing, patience, gentleness, all the fruit of the Spirit...denied as good. When we deny these things as good we have turned our back on God and there is no way forward to reunion with Him.

I take this very seriously. In context, as you know, Jesus replies this when he has been accused of getting his power to heal from demons. The critics (can't remember off hand if they were Pharisees or who), essentially said that something good is from demons, rather than from God. But this is not possible. If we insist to say that something good, like healing people, is actually bad, then we are truely lost. To deny the Spirit would first mean that we have to fully know the Spirit.

All good comes from God, and no bad fruit can come from God.

We can believe that it is possible to commit this sin, but we don't have to believe than anybody does.

Quahom1 · 03-11-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Ok Im really trying here but I need to ask a question here....
If all people end up with him why did he say....

Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

I am of the opinion that he who takes credit for what the Holy Spirit has done, is the unforgivable sin. I also believe there is only a few who have ever, or will ever commit this unpardonable sin...and they are variations of the "anti-Christ" persona...

v/r

Joshua

Dor · 03-12-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I am of the opinion that he who takes credit for what the Holy Spirit has done, is the unforgivable sin. I also believe there is only a few who have ever, or will ever commit this unpardonable sin...and they are variations of the "anti-Christ" persona...

v/r

Joshua

Ok my point was if there is an unforgivable sin that shoots universalism in the foot.

Dor · 03-12-2007, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I take this very seriously.

This I do also....this is a salvation issue to me.
We are saved by grace through faith. Take the faith out of it and whats left.

Quahom1 · 03-12-2007, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Ok my point was if there is an unforgivable sin that shoots universalism in the foot.

Agreed. And I think it's more like in the ass, than the foot...

Silas · 03-12-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Friends,

I have never tried to convince you that you need to believe this and I'm done putting myself out there for you to criticize and judge. I responded to the OP question, what is the character of God. God is unconditional love. I've said several times in several ways that I see no way for a God Who is Love to exile His creatures for eternity, and I've explained how I see the passages of the Bible as describing healing, restoring, and retuning for exile, and never eternal condemnation. You've told me in good conscience, and I believe you have only good intentions, that you fear my belief is a stumbling block to others. Fine, I will stop talking about it. I only explained it because I was asked to.

In His Peace,
luna

Luna,

PLEASE dont feel bad about explaining what you believe. I find it good that we can discuss these things. Does not the Bible say to "let us reason?" We are not mad that you are explaining your beliefs, we only ask that you explain from scripture why you believe what you believe. So far, you havent proved from scripture that all will go to Heaven.

Later,

Silas