Wrath of God pt 2 (What's your god like?)

[Silas]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I don't know if you have noticed, but since you got the hint from Brian you have been allowed to participate...notice the difference in the content of your posts? I said from the beginning you are allowed your views, but that proselytizing and name-calling were not allowed. You are free here to speak your view, but you must allow others the same respect. You have been doing that for the most part, so I have backed off considerably and allowed you to continue. That doesn't mean I agree with you...frankly I don't, I think you understand that. The difference is that I (of my own volition, nothing to do with moderating) have room in my heart and my belief for you through the power of forgiveness, mercy and love. If all you have is faith and repentence, where is the room in your belief for me or any others...ultimately including yourself? Perfection is a tall order, none of us is able to fill. Not one.

You're very nice to keep me on here so long. Thank you!!

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Silas

You're very nice to keep me on here so long. Thank you!!

You're welcome. Just stay with what you're doing now and you'll be just fine.

[Faithfulservant]

I was wondering why Silas has been allowed to stay here for so long hehe... Thanks Brian *waves*

We're ministers of Christ.. we may not all be pastor/teachers but we are servants of the Lord.. and I hope that we all make ourselves available at any hour to serve Jesus. As far as I have seen I havent seen Silas do anything other than what Jesus commanded... we are to be witnesses of Him

"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

and better yet..

2 Cor 3:1 "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established."

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dor

Actually would the "proto-Catholics" as you called them even recognize the Catholic church now?

Indeed, as long as it was said in Latin...the church has not changed much.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I was wondering why Silas has been allowed to stay here for so long hehe... Thanks Brian *waves*

We're ministers of Christ.. we may not all be pastor/teachers but we are servants of the Lord.. and I hope that we all make ourselves available at any hour to serve Jesus. As far as I have seen I havent seen Silas do anything other than what Jesus commanded... we are to be witnesses of Him

"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

and better yet..

2 Cor 3:1 "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established."

Indeed. But then, this is not a pulpit. Granted one has stated enlightenment from passages presented by...so, I must concede that one soul is lighter. It's the rest of us that really have difficulties stomaching mothers' milk...meat being our staple for years and even decades.

Not many wish to go back to the beginning...

note: perhaps we should have a "Christianity 101".

[-James-]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It's the rest of us that really have difficulties stomaching mothers' milk...meat being our staple for years and even decades.

Not many wish to go back to the beginning...

I kinda like it here @ the beginning, lol! Everything is light and pleasant, which is at great odds with where I was before I became new in christ. Don't tell me it gets harder from here; I had enough trouble coming to find my way to this place.

Milk...It does the body good!

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

note: perhaps we should have a "Christianity 101".

Yes perhaps we should

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

note: perhaps we should have a "Christianity 101".

So I just found the thread that initiated the need? I've just read thru these SIX pages, I was only gone for the WEEKEND...what have you all been upto??

Uh oh, I feel a heretical statement coming on...."Now I know how G-d felt when he came back to the garden..."

Originally Posted by Silas

You guys have taken away the crux of Jesus' teaching and replaced with an almost cultish santa clause type figure.

Funny, that is what I hear from many fundies as their view of G-d...Some old big old larger than life white man in a robe keeping track of who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. All a matter of perspective I suppose.

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

remember that MAN added chapters and verses..

Heaven forbid...again...this is what the liberals say...that the bible is not the inerrant word of G-d, it has been manipulated by MAN. Is there a Bible out there that does not have the mistranslations and interpretations...is there one without the chapters and verses added by MAN? FS can you point me to, or provide a list of which verses you believe have been added?

I find the reading of this thread quite interesting. Like boxers in a ring looking for the knockout punch...each wrath and vengence quote from one side is countered with a love and forgiveness quote from the other...each not taking time to be impacted by the previous blow but to just deliver one of their own.

For my answer to the OP....for those who have read this far...(tis wellknown that many see my name and only see love, blah, forgiveness, blah, tolerance, blah blah blah...) Anywho, I believe the wrathful G-d was made by man to explain away circumstances of life that couldn't be explained away, and as a form of government no one could argue with...ie you commit evil, you sin and break the law and your punishment will be forever, beyond even death....that type of thinking was needed when folks lived in conditions whereby they saw death as something that would relieve them of the horrors of life.

But buried in those texts is also an essence of truth...

The question here that needs to be addressed in my book is how does the 'fundie' answer to Luna's quoted scriptures...and not simply counterpunch.

And how do the 'liberals' interpret the hate and vengence quotes. Now some of this has been done on other threads...but our interpratations vary.

You guys have had a busy weekend...oh and I spent mine with a bunch of Liberals studying love and forgiveness...all Sunday School teachers getting prepared for another year of teaching our children about the glory of G-d and Jesus...the loving caring G-d and Jesus...

[Dor]

Originally Posted by wil

So I just found the thread that initiated the need? I've just read thru these SIX pages, I was only gone for the WEEKEND...what have you all been upto??

Uh oh, I feel a heretical statement coming on...."Now I know how G-d felt when he came back to the garden..." Funny, that is what I hear from many fundies as their view of G-d...Some old big old larger than life white man in a robe keeping track of who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. All a matter of perspective I suppose. Heaven forbid...again...this is what the liberals say...that the bible is not the inerrant word of G-d, it has been manipulated by MAN. Is there a Bible out there that does not have the mistranslations and interpretations...is there one without the chapters and verses added by MAN? FS can you point me to, or provide a list of which verses you believe have been added?

I find the reading of this thread quite interesting. Like boxers in a ring looking for the knockout punch...each wrath and vengence quote from one side is countered with a love and forgiveness quote from the other...each not taking time to be impacted by the previous blow but to just deliver one of their own.

For my answer to the OP....for those who have read this far...(tis wellknown that many see my name and only see love, blah, forgiveness, blah, tolerance, blah blah blah...) Anywho, I believe the wrathful G-d was made by man to explain away circumstances of life that couldn't be explained away, and as a form of government no one could argue with...ie you commit evil, you sin and break the law and your punishment will be forever, beyond even death....that type of thinking was needed when folks lived in conditions whereby they saw death as something that would relieve them of the horrors of life.

But buried in those texts is also an essence of truth...

The question here that needs to be addressed in my book is how does the 'fundie' answer to Luna's quoted scriptures...and not simply counterpunch.

And how do the 'liberals' interpret the hate and vengence quotes. Now some of this has been done on other threads...but our interpratations vary.

You guys have had a busy weekend...oh and I spent mine with a bunch of Liberals studying love and forgiveness...all Sunday School teachers getting prepared for another year of teaching our children about the glory of G-d and Jesus...the loving caring G-d and Jesus...

Have fun there Wil I will stick with my God and Jesus the one from the Bible.

[-James-]

Funny, I was just thinking how I would love to find a church like his.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Silas

Luna,

PLEASE dont feel bad about explaining what you believe. I find it good that we can discuss these things. Does not the Bible say to "let us reason?" We are not mad that you are explaining your beliefs, we only ask that you explain from scripture why you believe what you believe. So far, you havent proved from scripture that all will go to Heaven.

Later,

Silas

Hi Silas,

Don't worry, I don't feel bad in any way, but I take it seriously to heart when someone suggests I'm throwing stumbling blocks. Not that that can be avoided...we all do that all the time. But when some tells me that what I say is causing problems for others I wish to proceed with great consideration. I am not ashamed of my beliefs, but just as Paul taught, even when we know that it's OK to eat meat sacrificed to idols, if the eating of that meat causes others problems it is better to refrain. God cares about the way we relate to others.

You say, "Let us reason together," and we could stay in dialogue and do that if that were your approach. But you ask me to support my views with Scripture, then you berate me for it...it's a mug's game. My faith is not based upon Scripture alone, but on Scripture, Tradition and Reason, all these three gifts from God to draw us closer to Him and to each other.

By Scipture alone and the logic I've seen used here to dismiss the idea of universal salvation (the passage about the unforgivable sin), you could never accept the doctrine of the Trinity (God is one), and we could never have Biblical proof that Christ was the Messiah (ask Bananabrain). It's not my bag to do theology, but I know other faithful and intelligent theologians have also seen universal salvation as a theme of the Bible. They are no less qualified to express doctrine than Martin Luther, who relied upon his own reason (and also Tradition) when he elucidated the doctrine of sola fide, and they are no less inspired than Calvin when he elaborated on Augustine's doctrine of predetermination. Karl Barth, a conservative theologian, turned predetermination on it's head when he reasoned that it was Jesus who was predetermined to die--for all.

Faith alone is sufficient, sure, but you seem to want to put a lot of special qualifications on that faith, and I don't buy it. I think it is a distortion of Scripture and not reflective of the good news related by the first follwers of Christ in the Gospels. We also each have our experience of knowing God, as those early Christians did, experience you also belittle and dismiss. What good is having the Bible if we are not to let it be living to us, a place of access for Christ to each of us? Protestants did not like Rome telling them how to interpret scripture, yet now you turn right around and tell everyone else the only true way to interpret scripture. Ironic, no?

The 'salvation' you preach is not good news--and your own uneasiness with this is evident in your judgement of others because in effect you are judging yourself and God, and it a harsh judgement, not the easy yoke and light burden of Jesus.

You are starting to convince me of one thing though--perhaps you are right that fear is the only way to get the attention of some. By your testimony it is the only way Christ could reach you. But fear and hate seem like a terrible way of approaching our life with God and each other. I could not do it. And undermining the faith of others who approach Christ in innocence and love, like children, seems contrary to the Jesus I've met in the Bible, and in my heart.

We become what we worship. What is the character of your God?

[Dor]

Ok since I was specifically mentioned Luna please answer me a question did Jesus ever talk about hell and having faith in him?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Silas,

Don't worry, I don't feel bad in any way, but I take it seriously to heart when someone suggests I'm throwing stumbling blocks. Not that that can be avoided...we all do that all the time. But when some tells me that what I say is causing problems for others I wish to proceed with great consideration. I am not ashamed of my beliefs, but just as Paul taught, even when we know that it's OK to eat meat sacrificed to idols, if the eating of that meat causes others problems it is better to refrain. God cares about the way we relate to others.

You say, "Let us reason together," and we could stay in dialogue and do that if that were your approach. But you ask me to support my views with Scripture, then you berate me for it...it's a mug's game. My faith is not based upon Scripture alone, but on Scripture, Tradition and Reason, all these three gifts from God to draw us closer to Him and to each other.

By Scipture alone and the logic I've seen used here to dismiss the idea of universal salvation (the passage about the unforgivable sin), you could never accept the doctrine of the Trinity (God is one), and we could never have Biblical proof that Christ was the Messiah (ask Bananabrain). It's not my bag to do theology, but I know other faithful and intelligent theologians have also seen universal salvation as a theme of the Bible. They are no less qualified to express doctrine than Martin Luther, who relied upon his own reason (and also Tradition) when he elucidated the doctrine of sola fide, and they are no less inspired than Calvin when he elaborated on Augustine's doctrine of predetermination. Karl Barth, a conservative theologian, turned predetermination on it's head when he reasoned that it was Jesus who was predetermined to die--for all.

Faith alone is sufficient, sure, but you seem to want to put a lot of special qualifications on that faith, and I don't buy it. I think it is a distortion of Scripture and not reflective of the good news related by the first follwers of Christ in the Gospels. We also each have our experience of knowing God, as those early Christians did, experience you also belittle and dismiss. What good is having the Bible if we are not to let it be living to us, a place of access for Christ to each of us? Protestants did not like Rome telling them how to interpret scripture, yet now you turn right around and tell everyone else the only true way to interpret scripture. Ironic, no?

The 'salvation' you preach is not good news--and your own uneasiness with this is evident in your judgement of others because in effect you are judging yourself and God, and it a harsh judgement, not the easy yoke and light burden of Jesus.

You are starting to convince me of one thing though--perhaps you are right that fear is the only way to get the attention of some. By your testimony it is the only way Christ could reach you. But fear and hate seem like a terrible way of approaching our life with God and each other. I could not do it. And undermining the faith of others who approach Christ in innocence and love, like children, seems contrary to the Jesus I've met in the Bible, and in my heart.

We become what we worship. What is the character of your God?

Hey, I just wanted you to know that I read what you said. I actually wrote a really long responce, but I feel it wasnt right, so I earsed it. For now, just know that I read what you said and dont agree with a lot of it. The two main things I disagree with is:

1. I believe your understanding of God and His nature (who He is, what He wants, etc) should come from Scripture alone.

2. Sound doctrine and biblical love arent exculsive, but 2 sides of the same coin. If you want to love as God, you should know God as He is revealed in scripture, not what you precieve him to be. In essence, dont trust your heart, but the scriptures alone.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Dor

Ok since I was specifically mentioned Luna please answer me a question did Jesus ever talk about hell and having faith in him?

I have never once denied that.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Silas

Hey, I just wanted you to know that I read what you said. I actually wrote a really long responce, but I feel it wasnt right, so I earsed it. For now, just know that I read what you said and dont agree with a lot of it. The two main things I disagree with is:

1. I believe your understanding of God and His nature (who He is, what He wants, etc) should come from Scripture alone.

2. Sound doctrine and biblical love arent exculsive, but 2 sides of the same coin. If you want to love as God, you should know God as He is revealed in scripture, not what you precieve him to be. In essence, dont trust your heart, but the scriptures alone.

Duly noted.

luna