wy do people think jesus was god

[E99]

More Dor....

Your quote:

Matthew28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Is this scripture in some way helping to prove the existance of a triune God ? Usually the previous verse 19 is used (In the name of’) as a so called ‘trinity proof text’’

Are you saying that the phrase ’ I am with you always’ is definitely saying that Jesus has always been with God for eternity ? If so, this is really stretching it a bit too far.

Jesus is addressing man; and if you are saying that this proves that Jesus was eternally with God as a part of God before man was created then this doesn’t make sense because he is saying, in essence, that he has always been with man ("I am with you always"). The scripture doesn’t say that he was always there for infinite time before mans creation. He was, but not eternally.



Your quote:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. All of God was in him.


The way this is worded, at times, in English ...using the word 'godhead', gives the impression that the original Greek word used in this scripture, once transliterated indicates two or more entities in one (godhead).
By way of the actual meaning of the original Greek word you can get a truer understanding of what is actually being put across to us rather than the way that it has been transliterated. An appropriate word that can be used is deity, indicating a divine entity.


Col 2:9 for in Christ all the fullness of the DEITY lives in bodily form....


The Greek word used in this scripture is theotes and is better transliterated as deity....."all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily,"

This means that Jesus is of a divine nature rather than the actual one and only true God Jehovah. As much so as the angels are of a divine nature, (usually those not born into the material realm on earth.)

"divine quality" is theotes, and this is the only use of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures, there is a basis for translating these words as "Divinity"

Many bibles translate theotes as comparable to divine nature e.g. The Jerusalem bible:
"In his body lives the fullness of divinity, and in him you too find your own fullfillment..."

A similar scripture gives an understanding of what Colossians 2:9 is trying to say regarding how the scriptures are worded at times and the nature of the Christ.....Please compare with.........
John 5:26 “ The Lord Jesus said, ‘For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son to also have life in Himself. “


Important to this issue also, the interesting connection is that even humans can be partakers of the "divine nature/being of God" at 2 Peter 1:4 ...

‘Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.

which, as we can see above, can be equivalent to "deity/godhead." To think that we can become part of some mysterious godhead is a stretch for the Bible and common sense. With this scripture at Peter in mind, are some similarly stretching the imagination by saying that Jesus is God at Colossians 2:9 ?


Faithfulservants quote:

might I add that God doesnt make grammatical errors..

Humans do though, and the bible translators are human.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by E99

Hello Dor

Your quote:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


This scripture can give its true meaning to what Thomas was saying by using Jesus’ own words.......After Jesus' resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said:

"I am ascending . . . to my God and your God." (John 20:17, )

If therefore the words of Thomas at John 20:28 is calling Jesus the lord as ‘the God‘, why does Jesus not say the same. Why doesn’t Jesus say “I am ascending as lord God, your God, instead he says ...” ascending to my God“.

Jesus was not ascending to himself, but to his God, this is what he is clearly telling us, to a separate entity the creator God.


The very fact that the named God Jehovah is called the Almighty God indicates that there are other gods not so mighty. So Thomas could call Jesus God, but not THE God, and three verses later Jesus is called "the Son of God So there was no objection to John's reporting that Thomas addressed Jesus as a deity.


Powerful men were indeed addressed as Gods in the Bible:

Exodus 4:16, "And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people; and it shall come to pass, that he shall be to thee a mouth, and thou [Moses] shalt be to him as God."
Is Moses God ?


Would we even be discussing this if someone else was thus addressed?

Consider 1 Samuel 20:12 "And Jonathan said unto David, O lord God of Israel."
or ......"And Jonathan said unto David, OYahweh Elohim of Israel"


No one would ever argue that David was God, but if ever there was a movement to think so, this verse would be used as a proof-text.
What really is a proof text if you apply this same concept in the scriptures above to the 'Jesus is God' proof texts ?


The answer to what is being said at John 20:28 can also, as usual, be found from analysing the original scriptural language that was used. But this is in-depth and takes a lot of explaining.


Your Quote:

Hebrews1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


"HO QRONOS SOU HO QEOS"
Actually this reads as......."God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness." NWT


Other translations render it in the same context as the NWT e.g.
"About the Son, however, God said: "Your kingdom, O God, will last forever ! You will rule over your people with justice."-Todays English Version.


Reading on to Hebrews 1:9 God, your God, anointed you." This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.


Your quote:


John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Yes he knows all and he grew in wisdom and knowledge and he was tempted. He was fully man and fully divine.


The actual translation taken from the original Greek (middle part)......Greek syntax in English:


“he-said to-him the third you-are-being-fond me and he-is-saying to-him master (kurious) all you have-perceived (oida) you are-knowing (ginosko) that I-am- being-fond you is saying to him........


.........And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him.


The word 'oida' is transliterated as ‘have perceived’ which is then further transliterated as 'thou knowest' or know all things.


The original is not saying that Jesus is knowing all things as God does, he perceives and knows all things by perception from the almighty God. The son of God could not do a thing on his own initiative and prayed to God for everything. Similarly, all that Jesus knows is through his father Jehovah God. The apostles knew this, but relativly speaking, to humans...the apostles, it would have seemed that Jesus was all knowing.

He has not as yet assumed His mantle of Divinty at the time of the meeting. Quite simple.

v/r

Joshua

[E99]

Hi Quahom 1

Your quote:

He has not as yet assumed His mantle of Divinty at the time of the meeting. Quite simple.


Please explain, giving scriptural back-up where possible.
Forever learning and wanting to learn new concepts regarding the ideas that 'Jesus is God'

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by E99

Hi Quahom 1

Your quote:

He has not as yet assumed His mantle of Divinty at the time of the meeting. Quite simple.


Please explain, giving scriptural back-up where possible.
Forever learning and wanting to learn new concepts regarding the ideas that 'Jesus is God'

Ah, you want to know about the "Paradise paradox"...

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Not at all. But then you go and interpret as you see as fit also. Since Abraham was 2,500 years dead, and yet Jesus stated before Abraham was (past tense), I Am (present tense of to be), I see little room for interpretation of what Jesus states. Jesus never states "I was".

Greeting Joshua,

On the contrary
Greek Dictionary
eimi,i-mee'; first person singular presumed indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic) :- am, have been, × it is I, was.

relates to past tense as in have been, was and still is. Good try though.

Love in Christ,
JM

[JosephM]

Greeting E99,

Thanks for your well researched responses and assistance. It was getting time consuming to keep up with all the rebuttals without assistance.

Thanks again,
Love in Christ,
JM

[Dor]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Greeting E99,

Thanks for your well researched responses and assistance. It was getting time consuming to keep up with all the rebuttals without assistance.

Thanks again,
Love in Christ,
JM

I thought you were doing fine discounting Christ.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Dor

I thought you were doing fine discounting Christ.

Greeting Dor,
I am sorry you look at that way Dor. I don't see me discounting Christ at all. But then again, your opinion is your choice and no love is lost on my part here.

Love in Christ,
JM

[Cage]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Hey Cage,

The doubts about His wrath might be eliminated if you would grasp the entire Word. His jealousy is completely misunderstood. Your God just loves you so much that He wants to be first in your life. If you are letting things get ahead of your relationship with Him, you might want to step back and survey your priorities. Without listing specifics I can say that Our God is not a wimp and He definitely takes care of his own. His fierce anger cannot be explained.

I believe he loves his children, and I believe that we are all his children, as he created each and every one of us. I cannot reject the possibility that God is vengful against his children, as I don't know the mind of God, but I have my doubt. I feel his heart in mine, and I choose to serve him. His Love is above all else, and that is what I embrace. That doesn't mean I don't accept the totality of God, it just means that I embrace his Love as opposed to the other attributes man has put on him. I need not bother myself with his anger, or wrath, or his jealousy, as I serve him, and I know his Love.

The Old Testament is the written testimony of the covenant made by God and the “Chosen People” who turned their back on him, but he still loves them and the New Testament is the written testimony of the covenant between Christ and the church which included everybody.

No one knows the mind of God. “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. Isaiah 55:8
And the mind of Christ is how a Christian thinks and the heart of Christ is how a Christian loves.

The mind of Christ is 'wanting' to do the will God, and he showed us Gods will through his life, and example. It's not his death that stands out to me, it is his strength of heart, and compassion for man.

Guess what? Telling people you love them really pleases God. Don’t stop. Yes, Christ is humble and meek. But he also stands for truth and what is right. Half-truths are dangerous and deceptive. When we pray, we talk to God. If we speak in truth he listens. The answer could very well be “no, I’ve got something better planned.” Have patience.

Christ is a beacon of light to me, a light by which I see. Jesus showed me things in his word that made a believer out me. I began to search for Jesus in the Scripture, (More so than usual) and I found a man who knew Gods Love, and actually lived it! A most amazing person Jesus was, and his Life, [Example] turned my life around. He showed me what it meant to embrace God, and accept the Love God has for every man, woman, and child.

Yet, man is a rebellious bunch, [I was too] and reject his Love. This must break his heart, much like when a rebellious teen shows rejection to her parents. It would certainly break my heart...

If man would only embrace his Love, then they would most certainly understand the path I've chosen. His Love heals the soul, and it takes away the darkness. Christ was a beacon of this light, and a good and faithful Son to his father.

Psalm 27:14. God speaks to us through the entire bible. He would never include half truths, but he does want us to figure them out. If you have regular guidance outside the bible, I am NOT saying that you’re being guided by a spirit other than Jesus, but you need to make sure that it’s God. We were made in His image and we’re fairly intelligent. In other words, a grip with no blade means that the right idea is there but you are not fully protected against the onslaught of things hurled at you and you aren’t very effective in fulfilling the great commission.

God certainly speaks through the Bible, and his truth is there hidden within its complexity. Yet, his Love speaks louder than written word, and guides us through the straight gate. As for me being ineffective, then I guess that would be my error. But, I'm not trying to change minds, I'm only trying to make known Gods Love, and will. Jesus showed us his will...God loves us, and wants us to embrace him! People need to know this, so they too can experience what he has given me.

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” John 28:16-20

How do you make a disciple? You plant seeds. Jesus was the messenger, sower, and the Son of God. He was a beacon of light, but God and his Spirit was the light that dwelled in Christ.

And finally, YOU CANNOT FAIL GOD!

Sincerely, pattimax

We fail God when we reject his Love for us; we also fail ourselves...



Much Love,

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Greeting Joshua,

On the contrary
Greek Dictionary
eimi,i-mee'; first person singular presumed indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic) :- am, have been, × it is I, was.

relates to past tense as in have been, was and still is. Good try though.

Love in Christ,
JM

am, have been, x it is I, was. Past, Present and Future all rolled into one...thankyou for making my case.

[Faithfulservant]

[

Faithfulservants quote:

might I add that God doesnt make grammatical errors..

Humans do though, and the bible translators are human

Says you... God wrote my bible... God would not allow for mistranslations or human err in the writing of my bible...my God is too great to allow mere man to mess up His work unless He wanted man to.

[Faithfulservant]

Whatever happened to the liberal Christianity board? Noone there to make rebuttals to your claim that Jesus Christ isnt Lord? So everyone comes here because certainly the bible believers will give a good fight... yeah lets put those bible believers in their place...

Wrong.. You can try all you want to put Christ in your box...but God and the bible are on our side in regards to this issue... there is nothing you can say there is no argument that can ever make your case.. its one of those that you agree to disagree.

[Faithfulservant]

Everything in the bible points to Jesus Christ.. The Holy Spirit directs our attention to Jesus...The bible says that in glorifying Jesus we are glorifying the Father. So when we worship Jesus we are worshipping the Father.. When we praise Jesus we are praising the Father.

By taking Jesus off the throne and putting yourself on it you are breaking the first three commandments for sure by denying that Christ is not the only way of salvation you are under the law and will be held accountable for your sins in judgement. God is holy and righteous sinless God He is perfect and you will not get to the Father when your full of sin..

All who are full of pride to think you are like Christ in or that Christ is like you... I challenge you to go to a website like crosswalk.com and do a search in the bible on the word pride.. see what God thinks about pride and arrogance..

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Everything in the bible points to Jesus Christ.. The Holy Spirit directs our attention to Jesus...The bible says that in glorifying Jesus we are glorifying the Father. So when we worship Jesus we are worshipping the Father.. When we praise Jesus we are praising the Father.

By taking Jesus off the throne and putting yourself on it you are breaking the first three commandments for sure by denying that Christ is not the only way of salvation you are under the law and will be held accountable for your sins in judgement. God is holy and righteous sinless God He is perfect and you will not get to the Father when your full of sin..

All who are full of pride to think you are like Christ in or that Christ is like you... I challenge you to go to a website like crosswalk.com and do a search in the bible on the word pride.. see what God thinks about pride and arrogance..

Christian = (Christ-Like)

What is pride to you, faithfulservant; would you say honoring the Love of God, and allowing ones self to feel it be a pride issue? Love comes from God, and to honor it is what he wishes. None are perfect, but we can allow ourselves his Love for us, and act in that Love when deling with others. Is this pride to you? That someone feels satisfaction through Gods Love, and allows themselves to show it?

Worldly accomplishments are one thing to feel pride in, but I would say feeling Loved by God and deriving great satisfaction in that Love would not be the definition of pride used in the Bible. Or, were you talking about feeling pride in what one knows 'intillectually' about the Bible and God and Jesus? Certainly both are useful; w/o one the other is on its own. Both being the ideal combination. The difference is that intellect alone cannot lead to God, but walking in his Love always will. Heart and intellect are two completely different things, by which one will stumbe here and there, but the other the path made straight if walked in faith.

This is my view, but you may see me as a prideful man. It is not pride, it is Love that leads my way. I 'am' proud of my God, and there is nothing I can do outside his Love that can please him...


Much Love,

[Quahom1]

Lol, the title of the thread just hit me in the face (duh). There are those of us who do not think Jesus was god.

Jesus is God.