Xenophobic America...? Things that may you go Hmm.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Beautifully said, Path.

The gripe about the Mexicans was the same gripe about the Blacks and Chinese by the whites was the same gripe about the Irish and Italians was the same gripe about the Indians...

The thing is, usually by the third generation, we are moving out of the labor force and becoming more educated so our fifth and sixth generation can join the elite. Who is gonna do the labor? The upper-middle class and upper class do not cut lawns or clean their own homes anymore. The middle class are not putting on roofs as much anymore. The lower-middle class and under class still are though. Somebody has to take the labor. If you're upset about it, it probably isn't that big of a deal - you're about to retire and your kids are moving up the ladder.

It isn't the same at all. The "immigrants" you describe from the past came in legally, through our ports, were registered and were welcomed (America needed the work force). In influx of people coming in from south of the border are 12,000,000 strong and are illegal. They are also demanding rights they simply do not have.

They want a dual language system. I don't. I may speak spanish or french or what ever, but I do not want to conduct my business in the United States in some one else's language because they refuse to learn the country's that they are living in.

Now, should I come upon a person who is struggling to speak English, while conducting business, then my patients comes out full force. I'll wait all day, until we both understand the issue. I appreciate that person for trying to become American (by trying they are half way there).

I agree by the second or third generation the family becomes more or less Americanized, but the problem is people are coming so fast, it is first generation overwhelming second and third over and over again. We really can't take in three to four million a year, not with the current immigration system we have. It is simply a matter of economics.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Beautifully said, Path.

The gripe about the Mexicans was the same gripe about the Blacks and Chinese by the whites was the same gripe about the Irish and Italians was the same gripe about the Indians...

The thing is, usually by the third generation, we are moving out of the labor force and becoming more educated so our fifth and sixth generation can join the elite. Who is gonna do the labor? The upper-middle class and upper class do not cut lawns or clean their own homes anymore. The middle class are not putting on roofs as much anymore. The lower-middle class and under class still are though. Somebody has to take the labor. If you're upset about it, it probably isn't that big of a deal - you're about to retire and your kids are moving up the ladder.

It isn't the same at all. The "immigrants" you describe from the past came in legally, through our ports, were registered and were welcomed (America needed the work force). In influx of people coming in from south of the border are 12,000,000 strong and are illegal. They are also demanding rights they simply do not have.

They want a dual language system. I don't. I may speak spanish or french or what ever, but I do not want to conduct my business in the United States in some one else's language because they refuse to learn the country's that they are living in.

Now, should I come upon a person who is struggling to speak English, while conducting business, then my patients comes out full force. I'll wait all day, until we both understand the issue. I appreciate that person for trying to become American (by trying they are half way there).

I agree by the second or third generation the family becomes more or less Americanized, but the problem is people are coming so fast, it is first generation overwhelming second and third over and over again. We really can't take in three to four million a year, not with the current immigration system we have. It is simply a matter of economics.

v/r

Q

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It isn't the same at all. The "immigrants" you describe from the past came in legally, through our ports, were registered and were welcomed (America needed the work force).

Well... not really. Many immigrants from Europe did come over illegally, or at least unbidden. Italians, Irish, etc. were not initially welcomed. Whether or not America needed the work force, they were seen as second-class citizens and a separate race from the desirable ethnicities such as German and English. In fact, if you look at early censuses of the United States, they were not even considered fully "white."

America needs the work force now, too. I study the agricultural industry in the States, and we can't afford to have our agricultural workers be paid minimum wage, unless we all are willing to pay $10 for a head of lettuce. Most Americans would not be willing to pick fruit for ten hours a day when they can sign up for welfare and have a better lifestyle. And before we say the answer is paying a "fair" wage- consider that it would be null and void because the cost of food would skyrocket, thereby reducing our newly increased spending power. It's an economic mess. There are countless social scientists and economists working on it, and no conclusion in sight. Most farmers and ranchers operate on such a small margin that they already make very little money, and teeter on the edge of bankruptcy most of the time. The average cattle rancher's income is $22,000 per year for a family of four- and this is with one family member working 50-60 hours per week and generally one other working 20 hours per week. Is it any wonder that they often hire illegal cowboys and sheepherders, especially for temp work? I've had tons of ranchers tell me they managed to scrape together "decent" wages- $10 an hour or so, which is about what the owner-operator is making!- and that no American will take the job. They advertise, they try to hire an American citizen, which they'd prefer... no American is willing to work 40 hours or more of hard labor in the middle of nowhere, with the kinds of risks necessary (wild animals, being trampled or thrown from a horse, etc.), for the small wages agriculture can pay without going bankrupt or skyrocketing food prices for the rest of us.

At least in some sectors, American citizens are NOT willing to work. Even for minimum or higher wages.

And as for construction, my husband is a foreman in Southern California, and it's been a nightmare to get a decent crew of American laborers. Most young men seem to feel that they are entitled to very high wages without having any knowledge, work ethic, or desire to learn. They show up late, drunk, or stoned. They are unwilling to work hard and learn anything. Most of the construction companies here have been through person after person who is like this. The sense of entitlement among the American middle class is very frustrating- I've also seen it in management and in teaching. I had one student tell a fellow teacher that he deserved an A because he paid his tuition- he paid for the service, so he should not have to work. Is it any wonder, with this sort of work ethic, that some sectors who rely on hard physical labor and low wages (or they'd go under) turn to illegal immigrants?

They want a dual language system. I don't. I may speak spanish or french or what ever, but I do not want to conduct my business in the United States in some one else's language because they refuse to learn the country's that they are living in.

I think they should learn English because it has become one of the primary business languages of the world. It would be to their benefit.

I think we all should learn (from Kindergarten) Spanish and Japanese, minimallly, because then our students might finally start to catch up with the rest of the first world. Our education is appalling compared to Western Europe and most of Asia, where students (even poor ones) routinely learn at least three languages from a young age.

In teaching our children only English, with the option of a second language in high school and college (long after their brain could have absorbed it easily), we deny them advantages that other nations' children have in world business and politics. We're shooting ourselves in the foot in this country. Many jobs in so Cal already require being bilingual- by not teaching both Spanish and English, are we hurting those who immigrated here (who will learn English eventually, and thus be bilingual) or are we hurting those of us who were born here into non-bilingual families?

We really can't take in three to four million a year, not with the current immigration system we have. It is simply a matter of economics.

That's true.

I think what would be most fair is to legalize the people who are already here, and simultaneously tighten up the borders. The logistics of tracking down the people who are already here, and the many cases that this would make no sense- such as all the kids who were brought here without their choice, and who don't speak Spanish very well nor have any clue what they'd do in Mexico- are a nightmare, and very costly. To me, it just makes sense to say... "well, we didn't police our borders very well, and now you're here. You can stay, but now our borders will be better enforced." Then actually DO something about the border situation. The process needs to be more efficient- not only keeping illegal immigrants out, but having a fair, efficient, and quick process to give legal immigration to those who want to work (and who we need to come work). Far too many people wind up with one parent across the border and no way to get kids and the other parent across. Under those conditions, no wonder they come in illegally.

Just my 2 c.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

...
I think what would be most fair is to legalize the people who are already here, and simultaneously tighten up the borders. The logistics of tracking down the people who are already here, and the many cases that this would make no sense- such as all the kids who were brought here without their choice, and who don't speak Spanish very well nor have any clue what they'd do in Mexico- are a nightmare, and very costly. To me, it just makes sense to say... "well, we didn't police our borders very well, and now you're here. You can stay, but now our borders will be better enforced." Then actually DO something about the border situation. The process needs to be more efficient- not only keeping illegal immigrants out, but having a fair, efficient, and quick process to give legal immigration to those who want to work (and who we need to come work). Far too many people wind up with one parent across the border and no way to get kids and the other parent across. Under those conditions, no wonder they come in illegally.

Just my 2 c.

This I agree on. First, lock down the border (I mean tighter than a drum). Militerize it if neccessary (to get the point solidly across...no more, for now). Second, find all illegals and register them as Alien residents (not as hard as one might think). They will have three criteria to meet within two years. One: learn the basics of the Constitution of the United States. Two: mandatory English classes (free of charge, but attendence is a must), two to three times a week for two hours each class (saturation style). Three: keep a job and show proof (the wages may be lower, but non taxed, and the proprietor of the jobs is not taxed, and give the aliens a card that shows they are temporarily exempt from paying taxes on what they purchase (basic neccessities only).

If they follow the three criteria exactly, then after two years, give them legal resident status, and add a criteria - Four: within two years, one must pass the test given to all aliens, for naturalization. If they fail, they have one year to get it right.

If they don't adhere to the rules...they're gone after five years.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[wil]

It isn't the same at all. The "immigrants" you describe from the past came in legally, through our ports, were registered and were welcomed (America needed the work force). In influx of people coming in from south of the border are 12,000,000 strong and are illegal. They are also demanding rights they simply do not have.

They want a dual language system. I don't.

If one reads the history of the 'legal' Chinese, African, Irish, Italian, Greek, German...immigrants over the years....they may have been welcomed by some (companies needing labor and our government) but the masses...were none to friendly...and the same issues applied to them as apply today... INS has backed down in the past 30 years because of the need of workers...and IRS loves them because they tell employers to tax them at the single zero rate since their names and fake socials don't match....and illegals don't file returns therefore don't get a check back...ie IRS coffers fill with 'illegal' taxes!! (not all illegals are working at low pay jobs...many are in skilled labor trades collecting union construction wages)

And please remember the force behind English as our official language are hispanics....they know the only way to move their people out of the barrio is through education and assimilation.

[wil]

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here
in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall
be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to
discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or
origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an
American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance
here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an
American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have
room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we
have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American
people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

I think of China town in many cities where I would have a hard
time speaking to most of the folks there except for shopkeepers
and ordering in a restararaunt..

and all the Polish-American, Italian-American, African-American,
who are proud of not only where they migrated to, but where they
are from as well...

[RubySera_Martin]

I read this thread with great interest. It's good to hear an all-American discussion of the issues for a change. I've been wondering why most of the faculty hired by the school where I'm studying are picked from American institutions. I guess I'll have to ask the people who do the hiring. They're all nice people and they say how much nicer Canadians are than Americans, but they probably know they have to say that so we don't kick them out. Most of the students are, after all, bred and born Canadian. And proud of it.

I don't think we're nasty to Americans; we just don't want to be mistaken for them. Last winter I had a classmate who let something slip that obviously made her not-Canadian. Her accent precluded any other nationality than American if she wasn't Canadian. She said she tries to keep it a secret, though I don't know why. Another classmate keeps traveling back and forth between the countries for his education so we get news from the States. I don't really know why people come up here for their education but I guess our schools will welcome them and their currency.

This probably doesn't fit this thread....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I read this thread with great interest. It's good to hear an all-American discussion of the issues for a change. I've been wondering why most of the faculty hired by the school where I'm studying are picked from American institutions. I guess I'll have to ask the people who do the hiring. They're all nice people and they say how much nicer Canadians are than Americans, but they probably know they have to say that so we don't kick them out. Most of the students are, after all, bred and born Canadian. And proud of it.

I don't think we're nasty to Americans; we just don't want to be mistaken for them. Last winter I had a classmate who let something slip that obviously made her not-Canadian. Her accent precluded any other nationality than American if she wasn't Canadian. She said she tries to keep it a secret, though I don't know why. Another classmate keeps traveling back and forth between the countries for his education so we get news from the States. I don't really know why people come up here for their education but I guess our schools will welcome them and their currency.

This probably doesn't fit this thread....

Actually quite appropriate. According to Canadians, Americans are quite barbaric. Not true? Americans are not quite as cultured or as educated as our neighbors up north...and we tend to go against the status quo. Americans impede the progress of the world, because we just won't get with the program, and will not hire presidents with a view of the "bigger picture"...and we refuse to go with the world view. We are afterall, arrogant upstarts, cowboys, uncultured, worthless in the world...

does that about sum it up?

Then I opine that America is the "ass hole" of the body on earth. Everybody boasts about how great they are compared to America (and our faults). Everybody claims how much better the world would be without America interferring....ok, fine. America should clamp shut like the sphincter of one's backside (considering that is what the "world" thinks)...then let's see how healthy the world body remains...after time...

The reality is my dear Ruby, you are free and can express yourself because of this "barbaric" country to the south of you. Yes, your countrymen paid a great price, but we (The United States), paid as much a price (for your country's continued existence.

You all seem to forget that. America really could care less about the rest of the world. But we do care, and history (230 years of official existence), shows that.

I personally don't care what you think of me. But my country is a force to be reckoned with. My people give more, fight more, soothe more, just plain care more, than any country on this Planet. And you all know it...every last one of you.

That is why America will remain viable. We give a damn...

v/r

Q

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

According to Canadians, Americans are quite barbaric. Not true? Americans are not quite as cultured or as educated as our neighbors up north...and we tend to go against the status quo. Americans impede the progress of the world, because we just won't get with the program, and will not hire presidents with a view of the "bigger picture"...and we refuse to go with the world view. We are afterall, arrogant upstarts, cowboys, uncultured, worthless in the world...

does that about sum it up?

I've never heard it put that way. You seem blind to the fact that we know that we depend on the US for our very existence. At least, I think we do. I think it is in the best interests of Canadians for the US to remain viable. My fear is that it won't.

I don't think the US is behaving any different from any other world super-power in history. Might makes right--that is how humanity has always operated according to the world history course I took some years ago. That was the big thing that hit me between the eyes. All bullies, or big guys, act the same way. And their level of prosperity usually determines how tolerant or intolerant the big guy is of others. For some time it was the British Empire. Now it's the Amercan hegemony or whatever. I hear predictions that in the near future it will be an Eastern country, possibly China.

A look at the American dollar makes me think that time might not be far off. I don't look forward to it because that country will hardly be more favourable toward ours than the US and Britain have been. As for who paid what price for whose independence--I am not strong on history. There are always casualities in human life on both sides of any armed conflict but the psychological wounds tend to go far deeper and can fester for centuries.

Let me point out that I said it's the Americans we hire to teach in the school where I am studying who say Canadians are nicer than Americans. I never hear Canadians talking that way. As I said, I suspect it might be a ploy on the part of these Americans to gain acceptance of proud Canadians.

We're proud because we're Canadian. Seems we can't figure out exactly what that means and it seems we don't care an awful lot, either. That in itself seems like quite a difference from Americans, what with all this stuff about allegiance to the flag that even school kids have to repeat every day. I sort of take it for granted that everybody loves their country. I don't understand the mentality that requires people to talk about it all the time. Might it be an effort to convince oneself that it really is true? I don't know.

I don't know of any Canadians who would want to be American but we'd be hard pressed to explain why. It's because we're Canadian. That in and of itself should be reason enough, right? After all, roots go deep.

America really could care less about the rest of the world.

THIS, dear sir, is the offense Americans commit. It is THE offense Americans commit. [later: Does this mean do care or don't care? I took it to be the latter when I wrote my response.]

You all seem to forget that. America really could care less about the rest of the world. But we do care, and history (230 years of official existence), shows that.

You'd probably have to be an American to notice this. I really have not heard from anyone outside of your country who notices.

But my country is a force to be reckoned with.

I think six billion people agree with you on this.

I personally don't care what you think of me.

Then why the tirade?

[Quahom1]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I've never heard it put that way. You seem blind to the fact that we know that we depend on the US for our very existence. At least, I think we do. I think it is in the best interests of Canadians for the US to remain viable. My fear is that it won't.

I am blind? Very well. Your media and your philosophers are all a figment of my imagination. I am how you say...paranoid.

But you forget, I lived in your land for 15 years...no I am not blind.

Talk about arrogant, nationalistic, tendancies...must be a North American thing.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Then why the tirade?

Of course you are right. Why the tirade...

answer: As much as we think we are strong, we often second guess ourselves to death (which by old world standards shows us as weak).

What good is a strong man, who does not know which way to go? That is America today. The UN wishes to capitalize on that the indecision, and use it to its own gain. Countries who eye North America consider the indicision as weakness...not really.

We (United States), never had a world domination view to begin with, is it any surprise we don't know what to do with the power we have? We never had goals of ruling the world. We just wanted to be part of a world that did the Abrahamic law thing. That we understood. We wanted to invent and develop and prosper.

Now we fight and fight and fight other's wars. We defend a nation that most the world hates. We've been hit 16 times over the past 18 years by terrorists. We protect not only ourselves but other nations that have no appreciation for that fact. We have no credibility in the world, because the world has no respect for anyone. (Canada included).

As you said, government represents people...

I say, people represent government...

that means you tell your government what to do, not the other way around. I do believe that is called..."democracy".

v/r

Q

[RubySera_Martin]

Quahom, just do your work as you understand it. Obviously, this is a very sensitive issue with you. I did not realize you felt this way and I am sorry for rubbing in the salt.

I do have very grave concerns but perhaps this is not the time and place to discuss them.

Ruby

[flowperson]

Q

With all due respect, I believe that in theory you are right. But democracy in the US has devolved to the point where government will not/cannot do what the people wish unless they donate lots and lots of money to the applicable political interests/parties.

And in the US, and many other countries, there are only two choices available, liberal or conservative; and, both have proven to be largely unreliable as far as the interests of ordinary people are concerned. But as a wise man once said, democracy is probably one of the least viable forms of government available, but it is still probably the best of the alternative choices, as modern history has shown.

flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Quahom, just do your work as you understand it. Obviously, this is a very sensitive issue with you. I did not realize you felt this way and I am sorry for rubbing in the salt.

I do have very grave concerns but perhaps this is not the time and place to discuss them.

Ruby

I "swear" to God, that my sons and I will defend you and yours from all enemies, foreign or domestic as best as we are able, (as an ally of the US, and as required by the US), not because you asked us to, but because we choose to, so help us God...

Remember that.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Q

With all due respect, I believe that in theory you are right. But democracy in the US has devolved to the point where government will not/cannot do what the people wish unless they donate lots and lots of money to the applicable political interests/parties.

And in the US, and many other countries, there are only two choices available, liberal or conservative; and, both have proven to be largely unreliable as far as the interests of ordinary people are concerned. But as a wise man once said, democracy is probably one of the least viable forms of government available, but it is still probably the best of the alternative choices, as modern history has shown.

flow....

Are you a City person?