Xenophobic America...? Things that may you go Hmm.

Quahom1 · 05-22-2006, 10:32 PM

From the Associted Press:

MEXICO CITY - If Arnold Schwarzenegger had migrated to Mexico instead of the United States, he couldn’t be a governor. If Argentina native Sergio Villanueva, firefighter hero of the Sept. 11 attacks, had moved to Tecate instead of New York, he wouldn’t have been allowed on the force.
Even as Mexico presses the United States to grant unrestricted citizenship to millions of undocumented Mexican migrants, its officials at times calling U.S. policies “xenophobic,” Mexico places daunting limitations on anyone born outside its territory.
In the United States, only two posts — the presidency and vice presidency — are reserved for the native born.

Isn't that a fundemental "whoa"...

Who is calling whom the "kettle black"?

I just learned that those countries with SOFA agreements between them and the US, are not nationwide, in adherence.. If, for example, an American serviceman with an international drivers licesnse (issued by the US Govrnment, and co-signed by the hosting country's government), goes into an area of a country where there is no US presense, they are frequently arrested and charged with driving without a license...On top of bale, they are often fined several hundred Euro (which must be paid before trial, or being let out of the jail cell). They never get that money back.

In England, an American serviceman was forced out of Heathrow (sp), to find a hotel room for 250 Euro, while the English military got to stay within the airport, even though the doors were closed for the night. In fact the last thing he heard as he walked out the airport doors was "Toodles"...what the hell does "toodles" mean?

So it isn't quite "kosher" even among "Allies".

How does the US handle foreign military? Easy. USO. Any Foreign military (ally or neutral), is welcomed into the local USO. Basic questions asked (like what time is your next flight, do you have a point of contact you'd like us to get hold of for you, do you mind sleeping in a bunk bed...? that kind of stuff).

Xenophobic America? I think not.

What I do think is that 12,000,000 illegal "aliens" (not legal immigrants), think they can demand rights they don't have, under the US Constitution.

So much so that they dared leave their jobs and protested in the streets, to DEMAND their RIGHTS? All they did was identify themselves as illegal aliens...

Besides basic human rights, an illegal foreigner in America has one right left, to be sent back to their country of origin (conditional, on the "fact" that they did not break any-other law).

God help illegals, if we (the US), were to invoke the "exact same" penalties and punishments as the Mexican government, for those who violate Mexican immigration laws (for example)...

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

cavalier · 05-23-2006, 06:37 AM

It's not a popular thing to say right now, but I think America is great. Sure, the country makes mistakes, but any nation that does so much and is called upon so often is bound to sometimes go wrong.

The principles America was founded upon are genuinely awe-inspiring, and this from a proud Englishman!

China Cat Sunflower · 05-24-2006, 05:38 AM

Well Q, I think you're making the point of your Title. Is the problem with Mexicans a cultural one? Is it "America, Love It Or Leave It?" It seems to me that the pressing issue is border security. How did this debate over border security get turned into a cultural supremacy issue? What are we doing about securing the southern border? Oh, we're passing resolutions confirming English the national language. Add that to my list of no cost nothing issues the GOP lovingly wallows in approaching election season. Let's see...English as national language, Roe V. Wade regurgitations, defense of marriage, flag burning... do you see a pattern here?

Border security. That's the issue. Not xenophobic "go back where you came from if you don't like it here" crap. The second issue is the creation of a permanent underclass of "guest workers." But you right wingers wouldn't understand that because you're three-quarters of the way up Big Corps. intestinal tract.

Chris

taijasi · 05-24-2006, 06:26 AM

I feel inclined to say two things. One, nationalism, no matter which nation we're considering, is nothing more than the same beast, pride, which I see Christians babbling on about as the one, cardinal sin. I mean, ummm, yo, hey, what was it Lucifer got kicked outta Heaven for? Oh but wait, this is the good ol' US of A here, so we're immune, somehow the rules don't apply, this is different. NONSENSE - it's back to ONE above OTHERS, I'm better than you, WE'RE tops, yadda yadda. In other words, one heckuva double standard for people who pretend that all this jesus-lucifer-god-humility crap actually means something!

But the other issue, the question of culture and standards and equality and all of that ... well, it's simple. You come to America, you bring your cultural pride and heritage and all of that with you, certainly. It's understandable. WE DID!

And you want/need to be treated fairly, and have opportunities for employment, okay. And if you're willing to work for less than that joker over there who wants to sit on his arse half the day anyway, and stand around the water cooler, then okay. More power to you! You do good work, SO WHAT if you get the jobs. That's what this country is about, right? EQUAL opportunities under the CAPITALIST Democratic system to EARN YOUR LIVELIHOOD. Problem is, there's a whole bunch MORE double-standarding going on. We love our country, we're the best, we rule the world, and you're all welcome to come visit, BUT DON'T try and make this your home, because you AREN'T welcome.

OUR jobs, OUR neighborhood, blah blah blah. Dear God, WHAT is this nonsense???

For those who immigrate, of course you should have to learn the language, and learn about American Heritage (you know, how we kicked the REAL Americans off their land awhile back and STOLE everything we now own), and all that. You shouldn't expect extra ANYthing, and yes, wouldn't it be nice if we could all get this kind of treatment if we traveled abroad, left our precious America, and say, went to Canada or something. Sure it would, but the world is still growing up. And America is NOT the Big Brother it pretends to be, to all nations, all the time. We are a country with an identity crisis, a minor case of schizophrenia, a DEFINITE case of being hooked on steroids (and bunches of other stimulants), some SERIOUS health crises, and ETHICAL issues that I can't begin to get into!

But are we horrible and evil and all that? No. Perhaps no more so than other nations, just in different ways. And we DO have some rather wonderful qualities, and virtues, and accomplishments ... an admirable track record overall (? - maybe - ?) - and so, more importantly, we have a GREAT and TREMENDOUS responsibility to the rest of the world! I just hope we stick around long enough to live up to it. The UN NEEDS US ... pun/double entendre absolutely intended!

The WORLD needs us!!! God help us not to let other nations down, not to let OUR OWN PEOPLE down.

But for the record - For God and for Country - well, umm, those are two different words FOR A REASON ...

your typical BLEEDING HEART LIBERAL (And damn proud of it!!! ) ...

tai-freakin-jasi

China Cat Sunflower · 05-24-2006, 06:58 AM

Hey, it's the "market", right? The market system. I'm supposed to feel better about $3 dollar a gallon gas, food prices through the roof, health insurance skyrocketing because it's the "free market" system. O.K., where's the market on labor? Oh, big ag and the service industries get an out. They don't have to pay market wages, they can have "guest workers" come in and artificially depress wages for working americans. Well, how nice for them!

See, I don't blame the brown man. He's just trying to do his best. He doesn't mean to undercut my wages, he's got some mouths to feed. This ain't cultural, it's about exploitation at the hands of corporations and their partner Big Government. Must be nice to be ale to hire workers with no sense of entitlement. No worries about workman's comp. claims or OSHA reports.

Chris

wil · 05-24-2006, 02:18 PM

The bills will pass, an agreement will be reached, and we will look back on this time 20, 40 years from now and say...."What they wanted to throw those that toil out? Those who risked life and limb to cross the desert with nothing but what they could carry?"... of course they should be given access to citizenship...tis the same thing many of our ancestors did... So often people like to close the doors after they join the club...

Like it or not this is the civil rights movement, the raise in consciousness for our generation.

And comparisons of what other countries do or don't do to 'us', what they allow or don't allow to me don't benefit. Much as it doesn't benefit my child compare his bad grade on a test to the fact that another kid got a worse grade. It is up to us to raise our own consciousness, hold our own heads high, and do the right thing.

Surely we'd rather be a shining example rather than follow a poor example.

flowperson · 05-25-2006, 05:05 AM

Wil:

I agree with what you say. But it is amazing to me the verbal twists and turns that I have heard on NPR from opponents over the past weeks that only served to thinly disguise and rationalize the racism of some.

I say that in remembrance of my grandfather who was born in Italy and came here when he was five years old. He worked hard, had a full life, but was still discriminated against in not so subtle ways throughout his life simply because he was Italian. Of course all that is past now, but I still feel vibrations of it from time to time when debates such as this take place.

We are all immigrants !

flow....

Quahom1 · 05-25-2006, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Well Q, I think you're making the point of your Title. Is the problem with Mexicans a cultural one? Is it "America, Love It Or Leave It?" It seems to me that the pressing issue is border security. How did this debate over border security get turned into a cultural supremacy issue? What are we doing about securing the southern border? Oh, we're passing resolutions confirming English the national language. Add that to my list of no cost nothing issues the GOP lovingly wallows in approaching election season. Let's see...English as national language, Roe V. Wade regurgitations, defense of marriage, flag burning... do you see a pattern here?

Border security. That's the issue. Not xenophobic "go back where you came from if you don't like it here" crap. The second issue is the creation of a permanent underclass of "guest workers." But you right wingers wouldn't understand that because you're three-quarters of the way up Big Corps. intestinal tract.

Chris

I'm curious, about what your job is (not that I need to know). but were it to be threatened by one who offered to do it better, cheaper, faster, than you (after so many years on the job), just how you would feel...

Guess what?...guess what is coming to your home town...

taijasi · 05-25-2006, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm curious, about what your job is (not that I need to know). but were it to be threatened by one who offered to do it better, cheaper, faster, than you (after so many years on the job), just how you would feel...

Guess what?...guess what is coming to your home town...

Sounds like a little incentive for us to "be all that we can be" in the workplace, eh?

Suddenly the Protestant work ethic (which I have had preached to me for all of my 34 years in various forms by my Depression-Era-surviving Father) ... begins to hit home.

taijasi

path_of_one · 05-25-2006, 06:58 AM

For the life of me, I can't figure out nationalism on a personal level.

I don't understand why people make groups like nations and then feel it's worthwhile to kill or die for impersonal entities that are manmade.

That's just me.

I "get it" as a social scientist. I can talk about these issues, and the relevant historical and cultural processes that lead to this or that. But on a gut, personal level... I just don't get it.

I look at all human beings as part of one group. I don't care if someone is Mexican, Iranian, or Chinese- if they are oppressed and suffering, if they lack basic rights or access to resources to meet their basic needs, my heart is with them and I take their side. Maybe it's the result of growing up with a mystic-socialist-liberal-bleeding heart-hippie mom, or maybe it's because we were so poor we were homeless a few times, but I don't identify with other "Americans" at all if they have nothing in common with me. They're just another human being. Why would I ally myself with the elite in my own nation just because I was born here, when for all intents and purposes, the poor of other nations are who I understand and feel allegiance to?

I just love people. I don't see races. I don't see nationalities. I don't really see religions either. It wasn't until I entered elementary school that I even knew other people cared about these distinctions, or even recognized them at all. I didn't "see" the distinctions and even though I've been culturally conditioned enough now to "see" it, I can't "feel" it. I'm not American- that isn't my identity. I'm just human, living in a world of humans. I think we'd be a lot better off if we just thought about each other as Christ sees us (sorry, but I'm Christian so bringing up the Jesus reference)... I doubt God sees the lines we've drawn in the sand.

China Cat Sunflower · 05-25-2006, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm curious, about what your job is (not that I need to know). but were it to be threatened by one who offered to do it better, cheaper, faster, than you (after so many years on the job), just how you would feel...

Guess what?...guess what is coming to your home town...

I'm a finish carpenter and cabinet maker. Nobody threatens my job, but the base wage of unskilled labor sets the floor for all the levels of skilled labor above that. From what I've recently read, the net effect of undocumented workers on the earning potential of working class citizens is an 8% loss in real wages. 8% may not seem like much to you, but that's $3200.00 on a 40k annual income.

Look, I live in Arizona...need I say more?

Chris

taijasi · 05-25-2006, 08:10 AM

Path, this post of yours is now tied for my all-time favorite ... with Wil's recent post about the "power of words." Thank you for that.

By God, I don't want to clone anyone (!) - I just hope your understanding becomes a bit more prevalent.

In Love and Light,

taijasi

truthseeker · 05-26-2006, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

...but I don't identify with other "Americans" at all if they have nothing in common with me. They're just another human being. Why would I ally myself with the elite in my own nation just because I was born here, when for all intents and purposes, the poor of other nations are who I understand and feel allegiance to?

Beautifully said, Path.

The gripe about the Mexicans was the same gripe about the Blacks and Chinese by the whites was the same gripe about the Irish and Italians was the same gripe about the Indians...

The thing is, usually by the third generation, we are moving out of the labor force and becoming more educated so our fifth and sixth generation can join the elite. Who is gonna do the labor? The upper-middle class and upper class do not cut lawns or clean their own homes anymore. The middle class are not putting on roofs as much anymore. The lower-middle class and under class still are though. Somebody has to take the labor. If you're upset about it, it probably isn't that big of a deal - you're about to retire and your kids are moving up the ladder.

China Cat Sunflower · 05-26-2006, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Beautifully said, Path.

The gripe about the Mexicans was the same gripe about the Blacks and Chinese by the whites was the same gripe about the Irish and Italians was the same gripe about the Indians...

The thing is, usually by the third generation, we are moving out of the labor force and becoming more educated so our fifth and sixth generation can join the elite. Who is gonna do the labor? The upper-middle class and upper class do not cut lawns or clean their own homes anymore. The middle class are not putting on roofs as much anymore. The lower-middle class and under class still are though. Somebody has to take the labor. If you're upset about it, it probably isn't that big of a deal - you're about to retire and your kids are moving up the ladder.

If you care about people I think you should ask yourself if creating a permanent underclass of laborers in this country is a good thing. What we have is exploitation of the undocumented for the gain of big business and the wealthy. Hey, I love all people too, but I'm a working class dog. I care about the issues that affect my blue collar peeps. And I'm in this for myself: me, my family, my kids. It's all well and good to be dispassionate, but if you're not working class you don't understand.

And let me just say this: working with your hands to make a living is an honorable thing. I'm sick and tired of this idea that we should embrace a neccessity to move up and out of the crafts and trades to make something for our kids. I worked hard to learn my trade. What kind of country do you think we'll have when the only craftsmen are an exploited class of temporary workers? Is that the kind of work you want done on your house?

Stop with the double standard. Workers are entitled to a living wage. There is no job an american won't do, but we'd like to not have to live like Vietnamese and scrap for starvation wages. If we need more laborers let's make them citizens and quit cheating honest working class people out of a competetive wage.

Chris

truthseeker · 05-26-2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

If you care about people I think you should ask yourself if creating a permanent underclass of laborers in this country is a good thing. What we have is exploitation of the undocumented for the gain of big business and the wealthy.

It has always been that way. Land and Labor is money. Since slavery has been abolished, wealth is dependant on underpaid labor. The Mexicans are the same Indians that posed a problem 200 years ago; clearing them from the land for whatever reason which now happens to be the labor issue.

Quote:

Hey, I love all people too, but I'm a working class dog. I care about the issues that affect my blue collar peeps. And I'm in this for myself: me, my family, my kids. It's all well and good to be dispassionate, but if you're not working class you don't understand.

I am working class. There is a difference between professional labor and temps. Citizens have more advantage than undocumented, in the way that you have the opportunity to get the business license and use the services of undocumented people. You don't have to pay them below the standard pay, but generally these people are not coming here to settle, they are usually just trying to pay for their land and build their home in their country.

Quote:

And let me just say this: working with your hands to make a living is an honorable thing. I'm sick and tired of this idea that we should embrace a neccessity to move up and out of the crafts and trades to make something for our kids. I worked hard to learn my trade. What kind of country do you think we'll have when the only craftsmen are an exploited class of temporary workers? Is that the kind of work you want done on your house?

It won't ever be that way because working with your hands to make a living is an honorable thing. It's not about moving up and out of the crafts and trades to make something for your kids, it could very well be about giving your kids the opportunity to be able to explore what it is they want to do instead of being fixed to do only their father's craft. Not that your craft isn't a good one but, say, they just might have their own interests. It would be your children's freedom that you are working so hard for today.

Quote:

Stop with the double standard. Workers are entitled to a living wage. There is no job an american won't do, but we'd like to not have to live like Vietnamese and scrap for starvation wages. If we need more laborers let's make them citizens and quit cheating honest working class people out of a competetive wage.

Chris

Though there are different arguments, I think we all agree.