Y?

Postmaster · 06-04-2005, 12:53 AM

I'd like to hear multiple religious views on why God doesn't help people including children that are dieing of hunger every 3 seconds? Whilst others do not suffer the same fate.

vitaminut · 06-04-2005, 01:58 AM

I asked the same question until I read something from another Christian. God created man and the earth. The thing is, this is a fallen world, watched over by Satan(the mind of man). God gave us free will. We can choose to help others or not. God doesn't want people to starve, but they will continue to do so because of this being a fallen world. God gets sad and upset at all the crap in this world just like you and I. Until the earth becomes a new "heaven", then at that time the hunger and dying will end.

ISFP · 06-04-2005, 02:18 AM

Postmaster-

i do not believe in a god. certainly not a personal god. no.

i believe in the ability of people to reach out to one another. to cross paths and make a positive difference in one another's lives. this is what i am familar with, and how i see change come about in the world.

I, Brian · 06-04-2005, 10:55 AM

Indeed, where humans suffer, it is human responsibility to deal and address such issues.

For example, I could sit all day at home, not go shopping, and slowly hunger my family. Would I have any right to blame God if we starved?

Of course, the other side of the coin is as to how much God cares about the individual - but to do that, in my opinion, you need to separate the temporal concerns of this world, with the transcendent concerns of the spiritual universe. Hm...hope that makes sense.

Postmaster · 06-04-2005, 01:26 PM

The suffering a person who lives to the age of 100 is not as equal to a child dieing at the age of 3. In some respects just because something seems to be bad, it doesn't necessarily mean it is the way it seems to be. What makes us think that a child dieing of hunger, is more painful then living life to the age of 100, if we count all the bad things that happen to someone throughout 100 years would it not be equal the same if not worse to a child dieing at 3? That would be my response. We are all going to die one day right, isn't that what we live for? Obviously mans free will to cure suffering, is always a fighting effort and one from divine inspiration. But can we really see the full picture here?

Ciel · 06-04-2005, 01:37 PM

The transcendent concerns of the spiritual universe and the temporal concerns of this world are connected in the sense both have an alignment through the balance of power supporting life. There is enough food in the world to feed all, there is technology to provide support to heal barren lands, there are moral pipelines to move in support of those in need. The key is in the allowance and support of distribution beyond the power of the war lords. And it is the same in the spiritual universe. God waits in all compassion and love, longing to bring presence to tip the scales and bring vision to a world hidden behind the dark glasses of the ego in transformation. Theres already a few rock stars in various shades attempting to move mountains...........

Bandit · 06-04-2005, 06:42 PM

I have often felt that God allows these things, just to see what WE are going to do with it. How will we treat them that are less fortunate?
Why do some make fun of people with handicaps? & others spend there entire lives caring for someone & giving up all the other things they could be.
there is enough food to feed all, but they dump half of it into the garbage & the ocean.

Power? Control?
Love, caring & humility?

the longer we live the more we understand why. & when we cross Jordan, we will understand it even better.

That is one way I see it Postmaster.

alexa · 06-04-2005, 07:33 PM

I cannot blame God for all the sufferings and deads on this planet. God is not human and have not the same view on the Universe. I believe he has a plan, but the details are far beyond our understanding. I believe in destiny. I also believe we can change our destiny by reacting in a different manner one point in our lives. I read recently a fantasy book of Eddings (Belgarath the sorcerer) and found something interesting about the perception of the world by those who lived for centuries among ordinary people. Ordinary people have to live their life with the hope some day one of thier children will do special things important for the rest of humanity. How many generations passed away till the birth of Jesus, Budda, Muhammad, etc ?

Jaiket · 06-06-2005, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I'd like to hear multiple religious views on why God doesn't help people including children that are dieing of hunger every 3 seconds? Whilst others do not suffer the same fate.

The most common version I've heard is the idea that god (the one in The Bible) gave us free-will and by free-will humans make their own conditions. For me the problems with this are:

a)This contradicts the idea that the same god plays an active role in day to day life. For instance by the same rationale you might thank god for an opportunity someone starving to death in Africa might take the chance to curse god for the suffering s/he is enduring. The idea that we and not god creates our situation negates this outlook but for me damages the idea that the hand of an overseer is dictating our lives for better or worse.

b)It is rather unfortunate for the 30, 000 or so that die every day in the developing world have less potential for their free-will than us in more priveleged areas. Babies dying at six minutes old don't have a great deal of time to enjoy such a gift.

c)No-one has yet convinced me free-will exists. It cannot (if it does not exist) be a property endowned upon us by god.

d)What's in it for god?

For me, the most satisfying answer is that dieties do not have an effect upon human existence. If you must invoke dieties they can only play a creator - first cause role.

THUNK · 06-06-2005, 03:48 PM

Praying is easy, doing is hard.

If all the good religious people of the rich West decided to put thier energy, time and a goodly proportion of thier wealth into defeating poverty, it would stand a far greater chance of sucess than praying. Praying and belief is convienient and easy compared to action.

1 example; If The Church Of England tomorrow sold 90% of what it owned (including Church sites), billions would be available for good causes. The Churchmen would have to live more meekly - but Im sure given all thier words and preaching they are bold enough to endure such a minor inconvienience.
They would attract more followers through such valiant ACTION as opposed to easy words & non - action

WHY WOULDNT THEY DO THIS? - because they in the end are no different to me, in that they are a little selfish and greedy. The only difference is that they through prayer and religous lifestyle convince themselves they are somehow doing good.

Religion can get in the way of changing outcomes.

Walk the walk, dont just talk the talk - if you really beleive your doctrine.

path_of_one · 06-06-2005, 06:02 PM

I'm with the "we create this reality" camp. God gave us this amazing earth, filled with resources, to manage. We screwed up royally and continue to do so. Due to our selfishness and greed, we've used our brains and resources to develop nuclear warheads rather than creating a sustainable, high quality of life for all humanity. We have enough food to feed the world now. It isn't about technology. It's about inequality and unsustainable lifestyles. For the entire world's population to live the average middle class U.S. lifestyle, we'd need 4.5 earths. The first world needs to come to a spiritual place where their compassion and desire for everyone to have a decent life overrides their greed and materialism. So far, it hasn't happened. People want to blissfully live in ignorance that their choices affect the rest of the world, to ignore that they are not putting their beliefs into action. Most of the U.S. identifies as Christian, but honestly I see nothing of Jesus' teachings in the blatant materialism and greed that characterizes the U.S. economy and culture. How we got from folks like the Shakers and Puritans to our culture now is a long and complicated story, but we really need to reevaluate our way of life.

It isn't God's fault. In my experience, God as a personal deity (and there's more to God in my opinion than that) can be sought for comfort, guidance, and help, but it isn't God's responsibility to manage this earth and each other. That's our job. We were created as stewards of the earth, as keepers of the garden and each other. We were given everything we need to cure disease, feed and shelter everybody, and maintain peace and prosperity. My own belief is we need to stop expecting God to do something about the problems we've created, and start putting into action the beliefs we profess. If we did so, I truly believe amazing things would happen. Just imagine if all the Christians in the world alone lived after the model of Jesus... there goes the driving force of materialism in the first world, and begins a driving force of compassion, love, and humility. What a difference that would make!

Vimalakirti · 06-06-2005, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Indeed, where humans suffer, it is human responsibility to deal and address such issues.

For example, I could sit all day at home, not go shopping, and slowly hunger my family. Would I have any right to blame God if we starved?

Of course, the other side of the coin is as to how much God cares about the individual - but to do that, in my opinion, you need to separate the temporal concerns of this world, with the transcendent concerns of the spiritual universe. Hm...hope that makes sense.

I think this distinction you make here is really the most fruitful way of looking at this question.

But certainly it's tough. The classic text is the Book of Job, which to me as one of the wisdom books of the bible really stands outside orthodox interpretation. In fact, I don't think you even have to be a theist to appreciate its power.

Unfortunately, I think that very few people are able to really absorb very much of its meaning. The tendency is still to tame it by orthodoxy, or to complain in a superficial way that there's no answer there, that God isn't fair, etc. But the point is that there is a deep awfulness - in the original sense of the word - in ultimate reality that is really quite other to our everyday sufferings of pleasure & pain. This other can be articulated in other than theistic ways of course, and certainly doesn't require the notion of a vengeful or vindictive God; it can be seen, for example, in a quite different emotional register as the inconceivability of Nirvana or Enlightenment.

So I agree with what you appear to be suggesting: that just as in the Book of Job there's no "reasonable" answer to this; it can only be worked through with some form of spiritual practice.

Faithfulservant · 06-06-2005, 08:57 PM

a lot of bitterness on B&S lately...

foreversearching · 06-15-2005, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

I have often felt that God allows these things, just to see what WE are going to do with it. How will we treat them that are less fortunate?

That is one way I see it Postmaster.

I agree with you there, that's the way I have always looked at it.

I think it is to provide us with an opportunity to show what good we are capable of as human beings. I don't understand why some people will dedicate their whole lives to helping other people for example mother Teresa, whereas others just aren't bothered and will even go as far as to make fum of those less fortunate than themselves. There HAS to be a reason, in my opinion.